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MORNINGS AMONG THE JESUITS 



AT ROME. 



Bring Note© of Conversations l)eli> toitl) certain 

Jtesnits on tlje Snbfett of ftriigion in 

tl)£ dtg of Home. 



BY THE 



REV. M. HOBART SEYMOUR, M.A. 



NEW YORK: 
HARPER & BROTHERS, PUBLISHERS, 

FRANKLIN SQUARE. 

1856. 






Bertram Smfth 
March 15, 1934 



CONTENTS. 



Introduction . Page 5 

CHAPTER I. 
An Ordination — A Visit of the Jesuits — Explanation of my Views — 
The Laying on of Hands — The Priestly Power of Absolution and of 
Sacrifice — The Religious Movement at Oxford — The Religious Move- 
ment in Germany — The Nature of the Absolving Power — Whether 
Judicial or Declaratory — The Opinions of the two Churches com- 
pared 12 

CHAPTER II. 
The Grossness of some Superstitions — Whether sanctioned by the Church 
of Rome — Contrast between the Religion of the English and the Ital- 
ians — The Virtue of miraculous Pictures — The Reality of their Mira- 
cles asserted and explained — A Convert in a Nunnery — Parallel be- 
tween Eve and Mary— The Religion of Christ becoming the Religion 
of Mary — The Nature of this Process explained — Mary more Merci- 
ful than Christ a*, 35 

CHAPTER III. 
A Visit from a Convert to Romanism — Argument drawn from his Ex- 
perience of Happiness — Motive to rest entirely on the Infallibility of 
the Church— The Infallible Tribunal among Protestants contrasted 
with that among Romanists — Arguments for Infallibility — The Scrip- 
tures — Tradition — The Fathers. » 61 

CHAPTER IV. 
The Death of a Convert — Administration of five Sacraments— Prayer 
through Mary heard sooner than through Christ — Argument from 
Experience— The Madonna of the Augustinians — The Means by 
which Saints hear Prayers — God a Mediator to the Saints — Opinions 
of St. Chrysostom— The Influence of the Worship of Mary— Mary 
more Compassionate than Christ 96 



IV CONTENTS. 

CHAPTER V. 
Invitation to a Polemical Discussion — The Prohibition of the Scriptures 
for Sale at Rome — Universal Ignorance of the Sacred Volume— Sal- 
vation only in the Church of Rome — Infallibility of the Popes neces- 
sary to be believed — Whether there be Salvation in the Church of En- 
gland — The Church of Rome has never claimed Infallibility . . Page 124 

CHAPTER VI. 
Conversation with the Professor of Canon Law — The Fete at the Jes- 
uits' Church, closing the Year — The Question of Infallibility residing 
in a Council or in a Pope — Seven Signs or Tests by which to discern 
when the Pope is Infallible and when Fallible — The alleged Unsuit- 
ableness of the Scriptures as a Rule of Faith — The same Argument 
applied to the Papal Decisions 145 

CHAPTER VII. 
Opinions entertained at Rome respecting the Movement in the Angli- 
can Church — The Bishop of Exeter and others at Oxford — Caution 
against Romans intermeddling with the Church of England — Sepa- 
ration of the Temporal from the Spiritual Power of the Popes — Ar- 
gument derived from the Success of the Missions of the Church of 
Rome — An Indian Tribe converted — Their holy Lives — Wonderful 
Miracle — Credulity prevalent at Rome — Inconsistency between two 
Doctrines of that Church — Transubstantiation and the Mass — The Im- 
maculate Conception — Human Merit — Indulgences 172 

CHAPTER VIII. 
The Origin of the Catacombs — The Christians using them as a Refuge — 
As a Place of Worship — As a Burial-place — Forgotten and afterward 
discovered — Resorted to for Relics — A Visit to them — Description 
of their present State — Means or Tests for the Discovery of Relics — 
Collection of monumental Inscriptions found in the Catacombs — Their 
Character and Nature — A Conversation in the College of the Jesuits 
respecting them — Conclusion as to. the Religion of the Primitive 
Church 202 



JHnrtimgs amntig tjre Smtits at %mt 



INTRODUCTION. 



In committing the following pages to the press, it is 
felt that some few words of introduction are required, 
to account for their origin and to explain their nature. 

Having visited Rome, not only to gratify and in- 
dulge my taste for the arts among the most exquisite 
sculptures and the most beautiful pictures, the great- 
est miracles of art in the world — having visited that 
city not only that I might look at the ruins — the glo- 
rious ruins, of the temples, and baths, and palaces of 
the conquerors of the world, and to wander among 
those scenes where lived and walked the heroes of the 
past, but also and chiefly that I might see and study 
the true genius of the Church of Rome, and judge for 
myself as to her nature and character, I felt it to be 
my duty to avail myself of every means in my power 
to obtain information on the subject. 

Two sources of information immediately presented 
themselves. One was derived from my own means 
and opportunities for personal observation : I there- 
fore carefully attended all the various services of the 
Church ; was a watchful observer at every procession ; 
attended every exhibition of relics; was at every 



6 INTRODUCTION. 

church on all unusual ceremonials ; attended every 
place at which the pope or the cardinals were expect- 
ed ; took my place at every ordination, at every fu- 
neral of cardinals or bishops, at every reception into a 
nunnery, at the celebration of every festival — in short, 
at every thing that could give opportunity for judging 
of the true nature and character of the system, as ex- 
hibited in its outward manifestation of services, cere- 
monials, and festivals ; and I am bound to acknowl- 
edge the debt of gratitude which I owe to some mem- 
bers of the Society of Jesuits, and to some lay gentle- 
men of Rome, for the extreme kindness and courtesy 
with which they facilitated the prosecution of my ob- 
ject, securing to me access to places where otherwise 
I could not have been admitted. The results of my 
observations thus made have already been published in 
my account of "A Pilgrimage to Rome." The sec- 
ond source of information was not so dependent upon 
myself, but was opened to me by circumstances as un- 
expected as they were gratifying. I allude to the 
opportunity of close intercourse with the members of 
the priesthood, by which I might learn their opinions 
and feelings, and receive their explanations of all that 
was passing around me. It arose from the following 
circumstance. During my constant attendance at all 
the services of the Church of Rome, I was observed by 
a Roman gentleman who held office in the papal court ; 
and, being acquainted with him, he remarked one day 
to my wife that I seemed much interested in these 
things, and asked whether I would not like to make 
the acquaintance of some of the clergy. Having learn- 
ed from her my wishes to that effect, he called some 



INTRODUCTION. 7 

days after to say he had been with his personal friend 
the Padre-Generale — the Father-General of the Jes- 
uits, and had mentioned to him my wish to enter into 
communication with the clergy, and he seemed to in- 
timate that this was sure to convert me to the Church 
of Rome. He added that the father-general had di- 
rected two members of the order to wait on me, to 
give me any information which I might desire. These 
gentlemen came in due course. They soon presented 
me to others. They introduced me to the professors 
of their establishment, the Collegio Romano, and thus 
a series of conversations or conferences on the subject 
of the points at issue between the Churches of England 
and Rome commenced and were carried on, as occa- 
sion offered, during the whole period of my residence 
at Rome. A portion of my notes of these conversa- 
tions constitutes this present volume of " Mornings 

AMONG THE JESUITS AT ROME." 

I dealt with all frankness with these several gentle- 
men as to the object of their visit. They were under 
the impression, which they were at no pains to conceal, 
that I was disposed favorably toward their Church ; 
that I was one of those Anglican clergymen who nei- 
ther understand nor love the Church of England, and 
who, in a restless dissatisfaction and love of change, 
are prepared to abandon her communion for that of 
Rome, and who only wait a little encouragement, and 
perhaps instruction, before taking the last step. I 
was very careful to undeceive them, stating that I 
should be most happy to confer with them on the dif- 
ferences between the two churches, but that I could 
not do so under a false color ; that I was devotedly 



8 INTRODUCTION. 

attached in judgment and in feeling to the Church of 
England ; that I looked on her as the Church of God 
in England, and the most pure, most apostolic, most 
scriptural of all the churches of Christendom ; that, 
without unchurching other churches, she was still the 
church of my judgment and of my affections ; and that 
I had never for a moment harbored the thought of 
abandoning her for any other church, and especially for 
the Church of Rome. 

My new friends, for such their subsequent conduct 
proved them to be, seemed surprised at the decision of 
my opinions, and expressed their wonder that I could 
refuse to hold communion with the Church of Rome. 

I stated that I felt very strong objections, as they 
appeared to me, against that Church ; but that, if 
those objections were removed — if they, who were 
priests of the Church of Rome, could remove them — 
if they, living at the fountain-head of that Church, 
could prove them futile, in that case they should find 
me free to act, and prepared to act on my enlighten- 
ed convictions, and I would, without hesitation, join 
their communion. 

They generally asked me to state my objections, as 
they felt assured that they would be able to remove 
them. 

This invitation led to a series of conferences or con- 
versations with some of these gentlemen. We rang- 
ed through a very large portion of the entire field of 
controversy between the Churches of England and 
Rome, and much was elicited that was perfectly new 
to me — new, chiefly as indicative of the opinions and 
feelings of the enlightened and learned members of the 



INTRODUCTION. 9 

priesthood ; and I was sometimes startled at the opin- 
ions expressed and the feelings avowed, as exhibiting 
a phase of mind and feeling which has heretofore 
seemed to me incompatible with enlightenment and 
education. I have learned, and must bear about me 
forever the memory of the lesson, never again to re- 
gard the extremities of credulity as inconsistent with 
the most scientific attainments, or to suppose that 
what seems the most absurd and marvelous supersti- 
tion is incompatible with the highest education, or to 
think that the utmost prostration of the mind is in- 
consistent with the loftiest range of intellectual power. 
There was in some of my friends an extraordinary 
amount of scientific attainments, of classical erudi- 
tion, of polite literature, and of great intellectual acu- 
men ; but all seemed subdued and held, as by an 
adamantine grasp, in everlasting subjection to what 
seemed to them to be the religious principle. This 
principle, which regarded the voice of the Church of 
Rome as the voice of God himself, was ever upper- 
most in the mind, and held such an influence and a 
mastery over the whole intellectual powers, over the 
whole rational being, that it bowed in the humility 
of a child before every thing that came with even the 
apparent authority of the Church. I never could have 
believed the extent of this, if I had not witnessed it in 
these remarkable instances. They seemed to regard 
the canons of the Church precisely as we regard the 
decisions of Scripture ; and just as we regard any un- 
belief of the statements of Holy Scripture as infidel- 
ity, so they regard every doubt as to the judgment 
of the Church as the worst infidelity. It seemed 

A 2 



JO INTRODUCTION. 

as if a doubt of it never cast its shadow across their 
minds. 

But my friends argued in these conferences at a 
considerable disadvantage. They imagined that I 
was unacquainted with the controversy between the 
churches ; that I was disposed in my principles and 
views to join the Church of Rome ; that I was already 
convinced that I ought to join her communion ; and 
that my objections were only a sort of make-believe. 
They imagined that I entered on these conferences in 
an easy, free, unprepared state, and without any view 
to controversy ; and they therefore were induced to 
express themselves more freely and openly, less guard- 
edly than perhaps they otherwise would have done. 
This placed them in some respects at a disadvantage, 
which I am bound in candor to acknowledge, and one 
that was particularly serviceable to me, as calculated 
to secure to me the more free expression of their real 
sentiments and feelings. But, at the same time, it 
was not without its disadvantages to myself. I dared 
not distinctly assume the position of a Protestant con- 
troversialist, as it would, in the first place, have led 
to their immediate withdrawal from all communica- 
tion with me, and in the next place, in case I exhib- 
ited any thing like a proselyting spirit, there was 
every probability my passports would be sent to me, 
with orders from the police to withdraw from Rome. 
This necessitated great caution on my part, and oblig- 
ed me to hold back many things that I might other- 
wise have urged, and in all faithfulness should have 
urged ; and it obliged me to confine myself to one ob- 
ject, namely, the obtaining information as to the sen- 



INTRODUCTION. H 

timents and feelings of the priests at Rome. If I could 
draw them out ; if I could elicit their real mind ; if 
I could ascertain the real nature of their religion, and 
their mode of argument as developed in free and famil- 
iar conversation ; if I could occasionally advance an ob- 
jection that might awaken a doubt, or suggest a new 
train of thought in their minds which might ultimate- 
ly lead to better things, then I should have obtained 
all I could under the circumstances reasonably hope 
or expect to obtain. And thus we all labored, both 
they and myself, under certain disadvantages, and to 
this must be attributed, by the gentle and Christian 
reader, much of the peculiarities that characterize 
these conferences, and strip them of much of the point, 
and life, and spirit of antagonism which some persons 
might have expected. 

In all these conversations I acted for the best, and 
to the best of my feeble judgment. If I have done 
wrong, either in my close examination of the services 
of the Roman Church, or in my mode of conducting 
these conversations, I have only to bow my head in 
meekness, and pray that He whom I desire to serve 
may pardon his servant. 

I have now only to add, in reference to the accu- 
racy of these notes, that they were always written on 
the very day on which each conversation was held. 
"While actually in conversation, I often made it a point 
to make a note of what they said, and my mode of 
doing so was not discourteous, but seemed at the time 
to be giving importance to their words, as if they ap- 
peared to me deserving of an accurate record. But 
on every occasion, without exception, the moment 



J2 MORNINGS AMONG 

they left me I immediately committed the whole to 
paper. The conversations, as now presented to the 
public, are very little else than an accurate transcript 
of some of my notes thus taken at the time. 



CHAPTER I. 



An Ordination — A Visit of the Jesuits — Explanation of my Views — The 
Laying on of Hands — The priestly Power of Absolution and of Sacri- 
fice — xhe Religious Movement at Oxford — The Religious Movement 
in Germany — The Nature of the Absolving Power — Whether Judicial 
or Declaratory — The Opinions of the two Churches compared. 

The day was far advanced when the hour appointed 
for the visit of the Jesuits had arrived. The morning 
had been occupied by me in attendance at the great 
church, or Basilica of S. Giovanni di Laterano. It is 
the Senior Basilica of Rome, taking precedence even 
of St. Peter's itself. The object of my attendance 
there was to witness the form of ordination. Ninety- 
two young men were that morning ordained, admit- 
ted into the various orders of the Church of Rome. 
They are seven in number, and I was glad of the op- 
portunity of witnessing the ceremonial; and certainly 
it was a deeply interesting sight ; for however I might 
dissent from the system of the Church, and however 
strongly I might feel at what might seem to be super- 
stitious, or superfluous, or unscriptural, it yet could 
not fail of being a touching and beautiful sight, the 
self-devotion and vowed consecration of ninety-two 
men, in the flower and vigor of early manhood, to the 



/ 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 13 

service of God. As the several candidates for the va- 
rious orders performed the prescribed ceremonials, ac- 
cording to the rules of the Pontifical ; as I held the 
Pontifical in my hand, and carefully followed every 
step in its performance ; as I saw some standing, some 
kneeling, and some prostrate with face on the earth ; 
as I observed some receiving one order and some an- 
other, in different yet regulated forms ; as I saw the 
laying on of hands, the tonsure, the giving the chalice, 
the unfolding the chasuble, the tying the hands, the 
anointing the fingers, the washing, the communion, I 
could not but feel that the formalities were very pu- 
erile, but I felt still more my heart stirring within me 
in prayer that the Holy Ghost might indeed descend 
from above, and make them faithful and fearless in 
preaching the everlasting gospel of Christ. It was the 
cardinal-vicar who conferred the orders. 

I had returned home after this spectacle, and was 
looking over the Pontifical, examining a point which 
had much impressed me, when two visitors were an- 
nounced. They were two Jesuits. They came in 
the peculiar costume of the order. One was a priest, 
and the other a lay-brother ; but, according to the rule 
of the order, as observed at Rome, they were robed 
alike, the whole body, from the padre-generale him- 
self, to the lowliest lay-brother who is porter at the 
gate, being dressed in costume precisely the same. It 
consists of a black cassock, extending from the throat 
to the ankles, without any ornament beyond a little 
brass medal and chain appended to the waist. The 
cravat is white, but so narrow as to be scarcely ob- 
servable above the cassock, and over all is a black 



14 MORNINGS AMONG 

cloak, neat, plain, and without sleeves. The hat is 
remarkable for the great breadth of its leaf. It is not 
red like those of the cardinals, nor white like those of 
the camaldolines, nor decorated with rosettes and bands 
of orange, green, &c, like those of the prelates, all 
which seem so strange to our English tastes. It is 
black, and turned up slightly at the sides, without any 
bow or other ornament. The costume, as a whole, is 
neat and seemly, and as elegant and becoming as any 
ecclesiastical or academic costume can be. It certainly 
surpasses in this particular the style and appearance 
of the other monastic or religious orders, for it bears 
the stamp of studied neatness and propriety, while that 
of some of the other orders is exquisitely grotesque and 
ridiculous. 

In a few moments we all were as much at ease as 
the peculiar object and nature of the visit could per- 
mit. The interchange of mutual courtesies and some 
words upon general subjects soon led to the object of 
our meeting. 

The reverend padre opened it by saying that he had 
been directed to wait on me in consequence of my 
desire for information as to some particulars in the 
Church of Rome ; that he was informed that I was an 
Anglican clergyman who was wishing to withdraw 
from the Church of England, and to hold communion 
with the Catholic Church ; and that he came to as- 
sist me, as far as lay in his power, in carrying out my 
desire. And he concluded by asking me, in an earn- 
est manner and in an under voice, whether there was 
any thing particular which I wished to communicate. 

I did not choose to notice this sotto voce communi- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 15 

cation, but I said at once that there must be some 
mistake ; that some one must have misinformed him ; 
for that I was an attached member of the Church of 
England ; that I had, as one of her clergy, held pre- 
ferment in her, but had resigned my appointment ; 
that I was perfectly independent in my circumstances 
and my feelings ; that I had always been warmly op- 
posed to the Church of Rome, as well as sincerely at- 
tached to the Church of England; and that I had now 
visited Rome with a desire to see and judge all things 
for myself, to change, modify, or confirm my former 
opinions, after a free and fair examination of every 
thing to which I might be so fortunate as to obtain 
access. 

He stated at once, and with extreme courtesy, the 
pleasure he should feel in facilitating my object, and 
expressed his readiness to give me all the information 
in his power ; but that he did not see why I should 
be unwilling to join the communion of his Church, 
since it was allowed by all parties that there was a 
true Church at Rome, and that there was no other 
than one, and therefore he thought that, as an An- 
glican clergyman, I might not be unwilling to do as 
did some others, namely, while at Rome, join in the 
communion of that church. 

I replied that, whether rightly or wrongly founded, 
I felt great and strong prejudices against the Church 
of Rome ; that all my feelings and experience were 
against her ; and that I felt so many objections and 
difficulties against communicating with her, that there 
was much to be answered and removed before I could 
give him any hope of my joining her ; but that I was 



16 MORNINGS AMONG 

fully prepared to hear all that might be said in her de- 
fense, and that I believed myself sufficiently open to 
conviction, and sufficiently candid to acknowledge it, 
if convinced, and sufficiently fearless to act on it. 

He questioned me as to the nature of my difficul- 
ties, and suggested naturally to me that I should 
state my objections, that he might have the opportu- 
nity of removing them. 

I could not but acquiesce in this. It was precise- 
ly the position in which I desired to be placed. But 
I felt that my commencement must be with extreme 
caution, lest I should awaken suspicion and elicit act- 
ual opposition. I wished to be an inquirer rather 
than a controvertist ; and I was led to begin with a 
point that exactly suited my object with a man who 
imagined me to be one of those who, under the name 
of Anglican clergy, have all their ideas and feelings, 
all their minds and hearts with the Roman Church. 
The Roman Pontifical was in my hands at the mo- 
ment, 

I told him that I had attended at the ordination 
that morning at S. Giovanni di Laterano ; that I had 
observed what was to my mind a most remarkable 
omission, namely, the omission of the " laying on of 
hands" as the act of ordination ; that, although there 
was at an early part of the ceremonial a laying on of 
hands, yet it was only for the purpose of designation, 
and not of ordination ; as designating the person to 
be afterward ordained, and not as the act of ordina- 
tion itself ; that the candidates for orders were called 
ordinandi even after laying on of hands, showing that 
they were not regarded as ordained by that act, but 



THE JESUITS AT HOME. 17 

only set apart to be afterward ordained, and that 
they were not called ordinati until the chalice was 
given to them, with the words " accipe potestatcm" 
&c, " receive power to offer the sacrifice of the mass 
for the living and the dead." I said that this showed 
that, in the Church of Rome, orders were conferred, 
not by laying on of hands with prayer, but by the de- 
livering of the chalice, &c. ; whereas, if, as some 
suppose in England, the virtue of orders in the apos- 
tolic succession can only pass through the hands of 
the ordaining bishop, there can be none such in the 
Church of Rome. In her the virtue or grace of the 
apostolic succession passes through the chalice, and 
not through the laying on of the hands of the bishop. 

He replied by saying that the ordination was a 
continuous act — one that commenced with the laying 
on of hands, and ended with the delivering of the 
chalice ; that though the former was for designation, 
and the latter was for ordination, yet with the former 
was connected the power of absolution, and with the 
latter the power of sacrificing; that by the former 
was conferred the power of absolving sins, and by the 
latter the power of offering the sacrifice of the mass. 
He argued thus that it was to be regarded as one act. 

After some further conversation on this point, he 
went on to say that there were two distinct powers 
conferred upon a priest : one being inherent in his 
priesthood and inherent in every priest — a power over 
the literal and natural body of our Lord, that is, the 
power of transubstantiation ; the other being null and 
void unless with the sanction of the bishop ; not in- 
herent in his priesthood, but ceded to the priest by the 



18 MORNINGS AMONG 

bishop, that is, the power over his mystical or spir- 
itual body — in other words, the power of absolution. 

I said that I was to infer from this that a priest 
could celebrate mass, that is, could transubstantiate 
the bread and wine into Christ, and offer him for the 
sins of the living and the dead without the sanction 
of the bishop, but that he could not absolve the sins 
of his people without that episcopal sanction. 

He replied that this was precisely the case ; that 
he could celebrate mass without the bishop, but could 
not absolve from sins without the bishop ; that the 
former power was inherent in his priesthood, the lat- 
ter not. 

I felt that he had placed himself in a difficult po- 
sition by this statement ; so I remarked, If a priest 
has no power to pronounce absolution without the 
bishop's license, and yet can say mass without it, 
then there can be no efficacy in the absolution which 
he reads, and which the canon of the mass requires 
him to read. Assuredly, if he can celebrate mass of 
his inherent power, he can give absolution of his in- 
herent power ; for that absolution is part of the mass, 
and is, therefore, involved in it. 

His answer to this was very remarkable. He had 
no way of escape but one, and that one he did not 
hesitate to adopt. He said that the absolution in- 
volved in the mass is of no value or efficacy ; that it 
is only a general absolution of persons of whose sins 
the priest knows nothing, and of whose repentance 
he knows nothing, and therefore it is of no efficacy or 
value, and has no effect ; for, he continued, if the 
persons have repented, then God has already forgiven 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. jq 

them, and if they have not repented, then this abso- 
lution in the mass can not help them. 

I was conscious of the advantage which I might 
derive from this statement, and I therefore took care 
to dwell on it and to reiterate it, that it might be- 
come an assumed point, an admitted principle between 
us, to be employed in our after-argument. I waited 
patiently till our conversation should take such a turn 
that I might avail myself effectively of so important 
an admission. 

The conversation immediately took another direc- 
tion. He asked me respecting the movement at Ox- 
ford, remarking that the Anglican Church was now 
in a most interesting state ; that it was giving great 
promise of many and of better things ; that the late 
or present religious movement within her was now in- 
teresting all Rome, and Europe, and the whole world. 
And he concluded by asking me my opinion of the 
movement. 

This was the very last question that I wished to 
answer. I felt it might oblige me to avow my opin- 
ions sooner as well as more strongly than I desired. 
I feared the question might have been proposed with 
the view to test me — to ascertain my party, and thus 
to determine the course he should pursue. I knew 
that if I at once avowed myself a decided antagonist, he 
would withdraw from all further intercourse with me. 

I therefore answered his inquiry by saying that I had 
been careful to read all the " Tracts for the Times," 
which were the profession of faith with those among 
whom the movement originated ; that I did not agree 
with many of their statements and principles ; and 



20 MORNINGS AMONG 

that I thought that my reverend friend was mistaken 
as to their probable effect on the mind of the people of 
England — an effect of the very opposite character 
from that which seemed to be the intention of those 
who originated it. 

He asked me whether I did not think that they 
tended to create a similarity or union of the Angli- 
can Church with the Roman Church. 

I replied that such seemed to be the intention of 
the parties. They seemed yearning for a union with 
Rome, but that I apprehended a very different and op- 
posite result; that their proceedings would evoke, and 
indeed had already evoked, an antagonist spirit, which 
would be altogether too powerful for them, and I feared 
would do incalculable mischief to the Church. 

He said he was aware that the Anglican bishops in 
general had set themselves against the movement, but 
he seemed to treat their interference very lightly. He 
then begged of me to explain my idea of the manner 
in which the movement was likely to operate. 

I answered, that the Anglican Church stood be- 
tween two systems — between Romanism and Dissent. 
These were the two extremes, to one or other of which 
all who loved extremes were likely to precipitate them- 
selves. The party of the movement desired to draw 
her nearer and nearer to Rome — to give her more and 
more a similarity to the Church of Rome, and by that 
very course had led their opponents to run into the 
opposite extreme. It had evoked an antagonist spirit, 
that was sure to lead nearer and nearer to Dissent ; 
and I added, that my own conviction was, that the 
real evil, the impending danger, was, the people for- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



21 



saking the Church of England, as a Church declining 
toward Rome, and then utterly overthrowing and de- 
stroying her — a danger like that which arose out of 
the proceedings of Archbishop Laud in the time of 
Charles L, namely > the utter subversion of the Church 
of England. 

He intimated that he had not seen the movement 
in that light, but rather regarded it as one likely to 
lead the Church of England toward the Church of 
Rome ; that all parties of all churches seemed agreed 
that the movement could not stop where it was ; that 
the active movers would come over, and, if honest in 
their statements and sincere in their opinions, must 
come over, to the Church of Rome ; and that so far, 
at least, the Church of Rome must be a gainer ; that, 
however it might end for the Church of England, it 
must prove a gain to the Church of Rome ; that they 
could not remain as they were, but must go further ; 
and he felt that the course taken by such good men 
was certain to exert a great weight and influence 
upon others. 

I was silent, except so far as assenting to his opin- 
ion respecting the parties engaged in the movement. 
He observed this, and continued to say that there was 
a large section of the Church of England — and that, 
too, an increasing section — steadily and surely inclin- 
ing to the Church of Rome ; that thus a great divi- 
sion existed in the very heart of the Church of En- 
gland, and that thus there were many who would em- 
brace, and were embracing, the very system against 
which I objected ; and he added that although I might 
not be aware of the fact, yet he knew it from sources 



22 MORNINGS AMONG 

of information that were not accessible to all, that 
multitudes in England were privately coming over to 
the Church of Rome. 

On my remarking in reply that his statement was 
very probable, and that the members of his order, the 
order of Jesuits, were likely to have very accurate in- 
formation, he said that the existence of such a divi- 
sion in the Church of England was a strong argument 
against my remaining in her, and that the multitude 
of good men leaving her and entering the Church of 
Rome was a further argument for my forsaking the 
one church and embracing the other ; in short, that it 
formed a strong objection to remaining in the Church 
of England. 

I said, in as quiet a tone as I could command, as if 
indifferent to the result of my words, that I did not 
see how his statement as to the facts, whether true 
or untrue, could affect the principle of the question ; 
that I thought the argument derived from the exist- 
ence of a division or counter-movement in a church 
was an argument that cut both ways ; that at that 
moment there was a division and movement in the 
Church of Rome, arising out of the exhibition of the 
Holy Coat at Treves ;^ and that several of the priest- 
hood were the leaders of the movement ; that these 
parties were calling for a change or reformation in sev- 

* This conversation was held when the excitement in Germany was 
at its height. The Roman government suppressed every newspaper of 
all nations mentioning it. The Roman people were profoundly igno- 
rant of it, and even the English learned it only through the means of 
private correspondence. Newspapers describing it were suppressed 
at the post-office, and not delivered even to the English residents. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 23 

eral particulars ; that they were demanding that the 
sacramental cup should be given to the laity ; that 
some of them were actually administering it ; that 
they were celebrating their services in the vernacular 
tongue ; that they were calling for a rescinding of the 
laws on the celibacy of the priesthood ; that this move- 
ment occurring in Germany, was quite as marked in 
the Church of Rome as the movemeht at Oxford in 
the Church of England ; and therefore, I added, the 
movement in Germany was as cogent an objection to 
the Church of Rome, as the movement at Oxford was 
to the Church of England. 

He flushed and fired at this statement, declaring 
that the movement in Germany was nothing; that 
they were only a set of rebels ; that they were merely 
a few rebellious priests, who would soon be brought 
down. They were unworthy of notice, bad and rebell- 
ious priests, who would soon be reduced to obedience. 

I said that he seemed mistaken; that as the papal 
government excluded "the Times," and other English, 
German, and French papers describing the movement, 
not permitting the facts to be made known at Rome, 
it was possible he was not aware of the extent and im- 
portance of the movement ; that they circulated only 
those papers which were hostile to the movement, and 
that thus I apprehended he might be deceiving him- 
self as to the extent and importance of the movement, 
which had already succeeded to a considerable extent. 

My reverend friend was thoroughly upset and irri- 
tated by this turn of the conversation, and I was glad 
to let it pass to other topics, even though connected 
with the movement at Oxford. He observed that he 



24 MORNINGS AMONG 

thought the Church of England very inconsistent to- 
ward these men and toward herself ; that she admit- 
ted the ancient and Catholic sacrament of penance ; 
that is, as he explained it, she recognized the power 
of absolution, but that she did not exercise it ; that she 
went so far as to confer that power on her priests, but 
expelled them for exercising it; that the Lutheran and 
the Reformed Churches had rejected the thing alto- 
gether, and were therefore consistent, but that the 
Anglican Church admitted and recognized the thing 
— conferred the power on her priests — but did not ex- 
ercise it, and was inconsistent. 

I said that I thought he did wrong to the Anglican 
Church ; that she recognized and held a certain power ; 
that she conferred this power on her ministers ; that 
those ministers exercised that power, and were not, as 
he supposed, expelled for it ; that it was their duty 
and constant practice to exercise all, neither more nor 
less than the Church designed to confer on them. I 
then added that I feared he had misunderstood her 
formularies ; that she confers only a power to declare 
or pronounce authoritatively God's absolution and for- 
giveness of sins, and that all her ministers exercise, 
and can not help in her daily services exercising this 
power, which is all the Church confers on them, and 
that, therefore, she is thus far consistent. But as she 
does not pretend to confer a judicial power to judge 
the sinner and absolve the sin, as in the Church of 
Rome, so her ministers do not pretend to exercise that, 
and thus there is no inconsistency. 

His rejoinder to this was that our Lord conferred 
two powers, one to " bind" and the other to " loose;" 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 25 

and that, as the bishops of the Anglican Church exer- 
cised the power of excommunication, they therein ex- 
ercised the power to " bind" the sin upon the sinner, 
but never exercised the power of " loosing" by abso- 
lution, taking away the sin, and that this was a great 
inconsistency. 

I answered that, by our laws, if a bishop excom- 
municated a person for any canonical fault, he must 
take off that excommunication, and again receive him, 
on his open repentance ; that if he thus exercises one 
power, he must, under these circumstances, exercise 
the other ; and that thus, if the excommunicating and 
restoring power of a bishop, peculiar as it was to the 
bishop, and not to the priest, was the power to "bind" 
and " loose," then both were exercised among us, and 
there was no inconsistency. I then added, that if his 
views were carried out, it would imply that the power 
to " bind" and " loose" belonged only to the bishops, 
and not to priests. 

He avoided noticing this, and reiterated his state- 
ment in another form, saying that we ought to sit as 
judges on the sinner, and exercise a judicial power 
over him ; either binding the sin on the sinner, or 
loosing him from his sin, and thus placing him sinless 
before God in order to his salvation. 

I said that his words implied or seemed to convey 
an idea for which I was scarcely prepared, and there- 
fore I asked, If the "loosing" the sinner from his sin 
makes him sinless before God, and so secures his sal- 
vation, would not the " binding" his sin upon the sin- 
ner keep him sinful before God, and so insure his 
damnation ? I added that one must be coextensive 

B 



26 MORNINGS AMONG 

with the other, and it would be placing the damnation 
as well as the salvation of the man in the hands of the 
priest. 

He avoided this, and, as if he had never heard me, 
turned away to other subjects of a more general na- 
ture. I felt very unwilling to keep him to the point, 
lest by doing so he might be led to regard me as a 
controversialist prepared to dispute with him, rather 
than as an Anglican clergyman in a friendly conver- 
sation, seeking for information. 

It was not long before we returned to the judicial 
power of the priest. In reference to this, he said that 
the priest was a judge to give or withhold forgiveness, 
to bind or loose the sin, as he judges best. He must 
form his judgment to the best of his power, and bind 
or loose accordingly ; and then God confirms and ful- 
fills that judgment, binding in hell or loosing in heav- 
en, according as the priest, who was his judge and 
reconciler, should adjudge. 

I asked whether — seeing that the priest was but a 
man, and therefore liable to an error in judgment — 
his judgment was always and certainly confirmed and 
fulfilled by God, damning or saving, according as the 
priest bound or loosed on earth. I added that my 
question had special reference to such a supposed case 
as the priest making an error in judgment ; as in that 
case, although in error, it would seem that he had 
unlimited power for saving or damning, if his judg- 
ment on earth was always confirmed in heaven. 

He replied, that of course, where the priest, as 
judge, erred in his judgment as to the repentance of 
the sinner and the absolution of the sin, his judgment 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



27 



was not affirmed by God ; that in that case, though 
he bound on earth? yet it was not bound in heaven, 
and though he loosed on earth, it was not loosed in 
heaven. 

I said I wished to understand this point clearly, 
and begged he would correct me if I was wrong in 
inferring that if the priest judged erroneously as to 
the repentance or non-repentance of the sinner, and if 
he acted on that erroneous judgment in binding or 
loosing the sinner, it would then be of no avail. I 
asked especially whether, in such a case, the absolu- 
tion of this judge, sitting and judging judicially, was 
of any value. 

He answered emphatically that it was " void." 

I felt that now the argument was in my hands, 
and my mind turned in secret to Him w T ho alone 
could still my nervous throbbings and excitement, 
and enable me to speak with calmness and accuracy ; 
for, at times, when I considered that I was dealing 
with men on whom I had always learned to look as 
the most subtle controversialists, I feared the truth 
might fail in my inability to cope with them. 

I reminded him that he had made two admissions, 
or, rather, had laid down two things, which seemed to 
me all-important in this point. In the first place, he 
had freely stated that, if the sinner had not repented, 
then the absolution of the priest, however pronounced, 
was " void." In the second place, he had frankly 
stated, at the commencement of our conversation re- 
specting the absolution in the mass, that if the sinner 
had indeed repented, then the absolution was useless, 
inasmuch as he was already absolved by God; and 



28 MORNINGS AMONG 

having on repentance received forgiveness from God 
himself, he did not need the absolution of man. It 
would be reversing the words, and reading, not " what- 
soever is loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven, 1 ' 
but " whatsoever is loosed in heaven shall be loosed 
on earth." It was doing over again what had been 
already done by God himself. I stated that every 
man in England, on hearing his statements respect- 
ing the judicial power of absolving, would argue that 
if the sinner did repent, the absolution of man was 
useless, inasmuch as he had already the forgiveness 
of God ; and if the sinner did not repent, the absolu- 
tion, on his own showing, was void, as arising from 
an error of judgment in the priest. I added, that 
this was a process of reasoning which ought to be an- 
swered, and that I should feel glad if he could supply 
me with an adequate answer, for if the point were 
placed in the form of a dilemma, I could see no way 
of escape. As thus : The sinner is repentant or he 
is not : If he is repentant, the absolution is useless 
and unnecessary, as God has already forgiven him : 
If he is not repentant, the absolution is void, as al- 
ready admitted; and therefore, under these circum- 
stances, I could not see any advantage in the judicial 
power over the declaratory power. 

He perfectly understood me, as I thought, but in- 
stead of endeavoring to solve the difficulty of the di- 
lemma, he laughed at the idea of a declaratory power. 
He said that a power to declare and pronounce the 
forgiveness of sins was not the power promised to the 
Church ; that power was a power or privilege, not pe- 
culiar to the priesthood, but common to the laity ; 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 29 

that the power promised by our Lord to his Church 
was a power peculiar to the office of the priesthood, 
and that, therefore, it could not be the power of de- 
claring and pronouncing the forgiveness of sins, inas- 
much as all men, not only priests, but laymen — not 
only men, but women, can pronounce and declare that 
forgiveness ; and therefore, he argued, the priestly 
power of absolving must be not only declaratory, but 
judicial. 

I said, in reply to this, that however satisfactory 
his statement might appear to the Italian mind, I ap- 
prehended it would prove otherwise to the mind of 
England ; that it was there felt that a layman could 
declare God's forgiveness of sin as well and as accu- 
rately as a clergyman, but not so authoritatively. I 
said, if the sovereign of England sends a message of 
peace or of war, or aught else, to the sovereign of 
France, it is sent through a special messenger, a her- 
ald or embassador, or other authorized person. Such 
person comes with authority. His message is de- 
clared with authority. He is not the judge to decide 
judicially whether there shall be peace or war, but he 
is to " declare and pronounce" with authority the 
message of the sovereign. But any other man, even 
any woman, may deliver that message as well, as 
clearly, and as accurately, but not as authoritatively. 
All such speak without authority. The appointed or 
authorized person alone speaks with authority. In 
the same way God sends forth his message, through 
11 the ministers and stewards of the Church." They 
are the authorized heralds or embassadors of Heaven. 
They go forth with authority. And though other 



30 MORNINGS AMONG 

persons may deliver the message of forgiveness of sins 
as clearly and as well, yet they do so without the au- 
thority of the commissioned persons. Again, I con- 
tinued to argue, if a sovereign, in the exercise of his 
prerogative, pardons a criminal, any person may tell 
that criminal of his coming pardon, may " declare and 
pronounce" his pardon ; but the criminal will not be 
satisfied or comforted with the words of these unau- 
thorized persons, and he waits for the sheriff or law- 
ful officer — he waits for the authorized person, who 
alone can come with authority, to " declare and pro- 
nounce" the sovereign's pardon. And thus we arrive 
at two points : first, the official does not sit himself 
as judge, to act judicially and confer the pardon, but 
only to " declare and pronounce" the forgiveness of 
the sovereign ; and, secondly, he does it with author- 
ity, as the only authorized person, and therefore he 
does it far more acceptably and satisfactorily than can 
be done by any unauthorized person. This, I stated, 
was the true position of the ministers of the Church. 
He seemed at a loss for a reply to this, acknowl- 
edging that there certainly was a great advantage in 
the declaration being made by an authorized minister 
or official ; that there was some difference between 
the authorized minister on one hand, and the unau- 
thorized layman on the other, pronouncing and declar- 
ing God's forgiveness of sins. But still, he thought 
it an inconsistency in the Church of England retain- 
ing the form in her Liturgy, and not exercising the 
power in her practice ; and he felt this the more 
strongly, as he could understand the Lutherans, the 
Reformed, the Dissenters, who rejected the whole doc- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 3j 

trine ; they rejected all pretension to this power, and 
therefore were consistent in not exercising it; but 
the Anglican Churches alone had retained the hie- 
rarchy, the Liturgy, and other elements of the Church, 
admitting the existence of this power of absolution, 
but wholly neglecting to exercise it. He added, that 
Christ gave to the apostle Peter the power to bind 
and loose, to absolve and retain sins ; that that power 
was inherent in the priesthood of the Catholic Church, 
and that it ought to be exercised for the punishment 
of the sinner and for the comfort of the penitent. 

I said that I feared he had misunderstood the na- 
ture of the power of which he spake, and I endeav- 
ored to explain my views of it. I commenced by stat- 
ing that the words binding and loosing, absolving and 
retaining, were words in use among the Jews in ref- 
erence to leprosy and to lepers. When a man was 
afflicted with leprosy, the priest was required, under 
the law, to declare him unclean, and therefore to shut 
him up, or bind or retain him, thus excluding him 
from the congregation, lest he might infect others 
with his loathsome disease ; and when the man was 
healed, the priest pronounced him clean, and then 
loosed or absolved him, and permitted him again to 
mingle with the people. Now our Lord, in using this 
language, referred to that which was familiar to the 
people. It is this explains our Lord's words. On re- 
ferring to the law of leprosy, as set forth in Leviticus 
xiii., the words employed in the Septuagint are of 
vast importance on this particular. When the man 
was brought to the priest and seen to be leprous, the 
priest Was to declare or pronounce him unclean. The 



3$ MORNINGS AMONG 

word is fjieavei, that is, the priest shall defile him — 
ahall unclean him ; whereas the man was already de- 
filed or unclean, and the priest was not to give the 
leprosy to the man, but only to declare and pronoune 
that he was defiled or unclean by the disease. The 
priest is thus said to do that which he only declares 
or pronounces is already done by God. Again, when 
the man is recovered, and the priest sees him cured 
by the hand of God, then he was to declare and pro- 
nounce him clean. The word is naOapiei, that is, the 
priest shall clean him ; whereas the man was already 
clean of his leprosy, and the priest was not to take 
away the disease, but only to declare and pronounce 
that the man was clean. The priest is thus said to 
do that which he only declared and pronounced to be 
already done by God. It is evident that the priest 
neither gave the disease nor cured the disease — nei- 
ther imparted it nor took it away. It was the Al- 
mighty who both inflicted it and removed it ; and yet, 
in the language of Leviticus, the priest is said to do 
both one and the other ; and therefore it may be ar- 
gued that, in the language of Scripture, the priest is 
said himself to do that which he is only appointed to 
declare and pronounce to be already done in the prov- 
idence of God. This language pervades the whole 
law of leprosy, being repeated again and again : see 
verses 3, 6, 11, 13, &c. And as the Septuagint was 
in general use in our Lord's days, so his language, 
adopted from the Jewish habit or mode of speech, was 
clearly understood ; and when he desired his apostles 
to bind and loose the sinner, to forgive and retain the 
sin, he meant no more than that they, like the priest 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



33 



in the matter of leprosy, were to declare and pronounce 
the forgiveness of sins, using phrases perfectly intel- 
ligible to Jews, implying that God had already forgiven 
them. I added that as the Church of England only 
gave this power to her ministers, and intended no more 
than this in her Liturgy, her ministers dared not pro- 
ceed further. They exercised all the power they re- 
ceived or possessed, and therefore were not liable to 
the charge of inconsistency as possessing a power 
which they did not exercise. 

He made no attempt to weaken this explanation of 
the peculiar phraseology of the Jewish law, as adopted 
by our Lord, but dwelt on the comfort and advantage 
of allowing a judicial power to the priesthood ; and 
then leaving this subject altogether, he entered upon 
a narration of the circumstances connected with the 
conversion of a Lutheran minister of Germany, who 
had forsaken all, and coming to Rome, was graciously 
received by the pope, and was led to embrace the faith 
and practice of the Church of Rome. He then de- 
tailed the circumstances connected with the conversion 
of a Protestant clergyman of America, who had come 
to Rome with his wife and children, and was received 
into the Church. He was now studying and prepar- 
ing for admission into the order of the Jesuits, and also 
for admission to the priesthood. He had already been 
admitted into the inferior orders. His wife, by the 
kindness of his holiness the pope, was admitted into a 
nunnery, and, being musical, assists in giving mu- 
sical instruction to the pupils who attend at the nun- 
nery. She has not, however, as yet, taken the veil 
or made those vows by which she is to be forever re 

B 2 



34 MORNINGS AMONG 

movu4 ffuva her husband, and he may be enabled to 
enter into the piiesthood. 

My reverend friend dwelt at considerable length, 
and with lively interest, on the conversion of these 
parties. He seemed to think his narrative might have 
some effect in inducing me to follow the example. 
But, although I watched narrowly his detail, yet I 
could observe nothing in the way of argument or mo. 
tive that requires repetition here. I did not interrupt 
his narration, but he stated at the conclusion his re- 
gret that he could not meet me again for some weeks, 
as he was about to enter upon what they call the 
" Retreat," that is, the appointed retirement in the 
more solitary life of a recluse. In this retirement, ac- 
cording to the rule of the Jesuits, he was to be en- 
gaged for some weeks in reviewing the past, and in 
meditation upon God, and in reflections on the state 
of his own soul. In this solitude he was to be occu- 
pied in examining for what object God had sent him 
into this world ; how far he had heretofore been em- 
ployed in carrying out that object ; what he had really 
been doing in time past for the glory of his God ; 
and what he would now prepare and resolve to ac- 
complish for the future. He dwelt on all this in a 
manner that showed he wished to impress my mind 
with a seaise of the holiness and devotion that charac- 
terized the order of the Jesuits ; and after courteously 
expressing many regrets that he was precluded by the 
rules of his order from conferring further with me till 
his " retreat" was concluded, he proposed to introduce 
to me some other members of the order, to converse 
with me in the mean time, and give me any informa- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 35 

tion I might require or they could impart. I thanked 
him warmly for the opportunity he thus afforded me of 
extending my acquaintance among the Roman priest- 
hood, and with reciprocal expressions of kindness and 
courtesy we parted. 

The next day he again visited me, and introduced 
two others, who remained with me for some hours. 
He himself immediately retired. And thus an un- 
expected way was opened to an extended acquaintance 
with men whom I could not otherwise have known. 
They introduced me kindly and courteously to their 
college, and presented me to all their professors of the 
Collegio Romano. Some of my conversations w T ith 
these gentlemen shall hereafter be narrated. 



CHAPTER IL 



TheGrossnessofsome Superstitions — Whether sanctioned by the Church 
of Rome — Contrast between the Religion of the English and the Ital- 
ians — The Virtue of miraculous Pictures — The Reality of their Mira- 
cles asserted and explained — A Convert in a Nunnery — Parallel be- 
tween Eve and Mary — The Religion of Christ becoming the Religion 
of Mary — The Nature of this Process explained — Mary more Merci- 
ful than Christ. 

Very shortly after this interview, one- of my friends, 
who had undertaken to resolve my doubts and remove 
my objections to the Church of Rome, visited me 
again, and, after some preliminary conversation, in- 
vited me to state my feelings. 

I commenced by stating that I was very intimate 



36 MORNINGS AMONG 

with many of the popular objections to the Church 
of Rome ; that those objections had considerable in- 
fluence upon many holy and good men : that although 
some persons regarded them as founded on what might 
perhaps be regarded as an extravagant portraiture, as 
a caricature of Romanism, yet they had considerable 
weight, and ought to be clearly got rid of and re- 
moved from the field of controversy. I stated that 
there appeared to be many things that seemed not 
only extravagant, but even impossible, from their pal- 
pable absurdity ; things that at times seemed so gross 
that no reasonable credulity could stand them, and 
had the effect of raising an insurmountable objection 
against any communion with the Church of Rome, 
if, indeed, these things were part and parcel of her sys- 
tem, or in any way essential to her completeness ; 
and I added, that if they were not essential, they 
ought to have been got rid of as offensive to so many 
persons. 

He replied that he quite felt that there were many 
things to which my remarks would very justly apply, 
but that there were many others that were extrava- 
gant or absurd only in appearance ; and that it not 
unfrequently occurred that those things that at one 
time seemed liable to insurmountable objections, were 
afterward adopted by converts without the least scru- 
ple or difficulty. He therefore wished me to specify 
some illustration. 

I referred, in return, to the miraculous picture of 
the Virgin Mary in the Church of S. Maria Maggi- 
ore ; to the miraculous image of our Lord as a child 
in the church at Aracceli ; to the miraculous image 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 37 

of the Virgin Mary in the Church of the Augustines ; 
and to several other pictures and images, which were 
said to be miraculous, and which were worshiped 
with a special and peculiar devotion — were crowned 
and carried in procession precisely as the ancient hea- 
thens of Rome used to carry the images of their gods. 
I stated that these things seemed very gross, and that 
usually, in England, the advocates of the Church of 
Rome got rid of all objections derived from them by 
disavowing all these things as abuses, as exaggera- 
tions, as bad or superstitious practices, which were 
not acknowledged or practiced by the well-informed, 
and were not approved by the Church. I therefore 
would take the opportunity of asking him, living as 
he did at the fountain-head, and capable of informing 
me with some authority, whether others or myself 
could be justified in setting the objection aside in that 
way, namely, by attributing these things to the ig- 
norance of the foolish and superstitious. 

He answered without the least hesitation, and in a 
manner that took me by surprise. He answered that 
I had taken a very wrong view of these particulars 
in regarding them as extravagant or absurd ; for, al- 
though they might appear strange to me, as at one 
time they had appeared to himself — so strange, in- 
deed, as sometimes to be absolutely loathsome to his 
feelings — and although he felt himself unable to jus- 
tify them in themselves, yet there was no doubt of 
their being approved in practice by the Church ; that 
they were no exaggeration or caricature, but real ver- 
ities, which at one time were a stumbling-block and 
offense to his own mind. He added that there was 



38 MORNINGS AMONG 

much that might be said in their favor, for that the 
Italians were a people very different from the En- 
glish ; that the English loved a religion of the heart, 
and the Italians a religion of the senses; the English 
a religion of the feelings, and the Italians a religion 
for the taste ; the English an inward and spiritual 
religion, and the Italian an outward and visible re- 
ligion; and that it was the intention of the Church, 
as well as her duty, to arrange all the rites, ceremo- 
nies, acts, services of religion, so as to be suitable to 
an outward and visible religion, and calculated for the 
mind of Italy ; and thus those particulars concerning 
the crowning and processions of miraculous pictures 
and miraculous images, however strange and absurd 
to the English, have been sanctioned by the Church as 
both natural and wise to the Italians. 

I expressed in strong terms my surprise at the posi- 
tion he had taken, expecting that he would have de- 
nied or softened these things, instead of asserting and 
defending them. And I took the opportunity of al- 
luding to the coronation of the picture of Mary, in S. 
Maria Maggiore — a coronation by the present pope 
(Gregory XII.), who crowned it amid religious services 
with his own hands. I also alluded to the procession 
which conducted the same picture through the streets, 
in order to suppress the cholera — a procession in which 
the present pope joined bare-footed ; and I asked wheth- 
er we were to regard these acts, in which all the chiefs 
of the Church, as the pope, cardinals, bishops, &c, took 
an active part, as the acts of the Church, sanctioning 
the opinions that pictures could work miracles, and 
that the procession of a picture of the Virgin Mary 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



39 



could possibly stay the virulence of the cholera, and 
that any particular picture was entitled to any special 
or peculiar devotion, as a coronation — in short, entitled 
to more veneration than other pictures. 

To this he replied with frankness and decision, say- 
ing that he had no doubt, and that there could be no 
doubt whatever, as to the miraculous powers of some 
images and pictures ; and he explained the matter 
thus. It sometimes occurred, he said, that some per- 
sons were affected — specially affected or moved by 
some pictures or images more than by others ; that, in 
praying before these, their feelings were more touch- 
ed, their sensibilities more excited, and their devotional 
affections more drawn out in prayer ; that, in answer 
to such prayer, God not unfrequently gave responses 
which were more marked than ordinary, and were to 
be regarded as miraculous answers to prayers made 
before miraculous pictures or images. 

I could not avoid showing my incredulity as to all 
this, and I certainly was as surprised as I was incred- 
ulous. 

He observed this, but only continued to express him- 
self more strongly, stating that there was no doubt 
whatever as to the reality of many miracles of this na- 
ture in answer to such prayers ; and that, when the 
report of these miracles spread abroad, when the pub- 
lic heard of them, when the minds of the devout were 
excited by the fame of them, then multitudes of per- 
sons naturally flocked to such pictures and images to 
pray before them ; and their feelings being excited, 
and their affections being the more drawn out by the 
circumstance, there were yet again other miracles 



40 MORNINGS AMONG 

wrought by God, and so these images and pictures be- 
came miraculous. He added that the picture of the 
Virgin at S. Maria Maggiore was such ; that the im- 
age of Mary at the church of the Augustinians was 
such ; and that the picture of St. Ignatius praying to 
the Virgin in the Church of Gesu was, with many oth- 
ers, also miraculous. 

I must frankly confess that I was wholly unpre- 
pared for this. In all my former experience of con- 
troversy in Ireland and England, I had been told that 
all those were the mere abuses of the superstitious, 
and not sanctioned by the learned, if, indeed, such 
things were believed or practiced any where. I had 
often heard them denounced as mere fabrications — 
pure inventions to injure the character of the Church 
of Rome, and I felt much surprise to find them not 
only believed and practiced, but defended. I felt that 
it was opening out to me a new state of things, a new 
phase of mind, and a totally new system of faith or 
credulity which I had never anticipated. A mind 
must be in a peculiar state to believe in the miracu- 
lous powers of a picture or image. 

His explanation led me to advance a step in our 
argument, and to say that his statements seemed to 
imply that there was something peculiar to those im- 
ages and pictures, something inherent in them as com- 
pared with others, something not in the saint or angel 
represented, but in these very pictures and images 
themselves. I endeavored to illustrate my meaning 
by suggesting two pictures of the Virgin Mary placed 
side by side, and asking whether one being supposed 
to be miraculous, the people would pray before that 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 41 

one rather than the other ; and whether he believed 
the Virgin Mary would interfere with a miraculous an- 
swer for those who prayed to her before that one rather 
than the other. I added, that if such was the case, it 
went to prove a belief that there was something pe- 
culiar, some virtue or power, something miraculous in 
such a picture, in one rather than the other, and that 
the distinction proved that the people did look for some- 
thing in pictures and images more than the persons 
whom they were designed to represent. 

He gave the fullest assent to this, saying that they 
looked first of all to the saint represented in the pic- 
ture or image, and that then, in case there was a mi- 
raculous character, they looked also to that power or 
virtue. He added, that his full belief was, that the 
Virgin Mary was more partial to some representations 
of herself than to others ; and that, in order to induce 
the devout to pray before these her favorite ones, she 
heard and answered the prayers so offered, while she 
neglected those that were offered elsewhere; answer- 
ing the prayers offered before one picture which she 
liked, and refusing those offered before a picture which 
she did not like. 

This was a degree of credulity, not to say super- 
stition, for which I was wholly unprepared ; and I felt 
that there must be something in the atmosphere of 
Italy, or something in the training of the mind of It- 
aly, that could lead an intelligent, a traveled, and edu- 
cated man to such a state of credulity. I took occa- 
sion to remark — which I did with all possible courtesy, 
to avoid giving offense — that these things created an 
insurmountable barrier between England and Rome 



42 MORNINGS AMONG 

I frankly stated that my judgment rejected, while my 
feelings recoiled and revolted from them ; that, so long 
as they might be regarded as mere abuses, or mere 
exaggerations of enthusiastic votaries, or as the pious 
frauds of monks and friars, they might be borne with 
as things to be flung away by the wise and good ; but 
if regarded as true — these pictures as miraculous pic- 
tures, these miracles as true miracles, such worship 
of the Virgin a right worship — they then presented a 
difficulty which could not be overcome. I felt it 
strange that all these things, so denied in England by 
the advocates of Romanism, should be so frankly avow- 
ed in Rome by the most intelligent of her priesthood. 
In reply to all this, which he received in a most 
amiable spirit, he said that he could quite enter into 
my feelings ; that his experience was not small, and 
that he knew of instances where things that were at 
first viewed with loathing were afterward received 
with facility. He mentioned the case of a lady who 
had been a Protestant, but who had entered the Church 
of Rome and a convent together. On going for the 
first time to confession, the penance imposed for some 
little sin was — to say the Litany of the blessed Vir- 
gin Mary ! She declined, stating how repulsive that 
Litany was still to her opinions and feelings, so that 
she could not bring herself to say it, and begged that 
some other penance, which she could perform, might 
be imposed in its stead. Her request was complied 
with, and she was satisfied. And now her opinions 
and feelings have gradually and so completely changed, 
that she is able to repeat this Litany without the least 
repugnance. He continued to say, that if I changed 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 43 

my religion, I should experience a similar change in 
myself, and that what now seemed revolting would 
become in time very easily received. 

I felt that this was an unhappy case, as it seemed 
to argue that the lady had only stifled her feelings and 
concealed her opinions, and perhaps had become hard- 
ened by use. And having already heard something 
of her hard lot, her struggles with want, her admis- 
sion into a nunnery to enable her to live, it looked as 
if her sad circumstances had led to her steeling her 
heart, and becoming careless as to any form of wor- 
ship. My wife afterward met her in her convent, 
and had some conversation with her. She invited 
my wife to attend the service in the chapel of the 
nunnery. My wife stated that she had heard it was 
requested that all who entered the chapel should kneel 
and worship the Host, and that no one was admitted 
unless on that understanding. She replied that such 
was the case, but that my wife should remember that 
God might be in the Host, and that she might there- 
fore safely worship him there. My wife said that she 
knew very well that God was not in the Host more 
than in any thing else, and that, believing this, she 
could not worship it without committing idolatry. 
The lady rejoined that surely she could kneel and say 
her own prayers secretly without saying them to the 
Host. My wife replied that would be insincerity and 
hypocrisy ; appearing in body to join in the worship, 
while in spirit being far otherwise. The lady prompt- 
ly suggested that even this was better than giving of- 
fense to the congregation by refusing to worship the 
Host. Upon which my wife replied, it was better 



44 MORNINGS AMONG 

still to absent herself, and so neither offend God on 
one hand nor the congregation on the other. This con- 
versation left a very unfavorable impression on my 
wife as to the simplicity and sincerity of the religious 
profession of this converted lady. But to return : 

My clerical friend, after a pause, which I was un- 
willing to break, lest I should express myself as strong- 
ly as I felt, resumed the conversation, and said, that 
the worship of the Virgin Mary was a growing wor- 
ship in Rome ; that it was increasing in depth and 
intenseness of devotion ; and that there were now many 
of their divines, and he spoke of himself as agreeing 
with them in sentiment, who were teaching that as 
a woman brought in death, so a woman was to bring 
in life ; that as a woman brought in sin, so a woman 
was to bring in holiness ; that as Eve brought in dam- 
nation, so Mary was to bring in salvation ; and that 
the effect of this opinion was largely to increase the 
reverence and worship given to the Virgin Mary. 

I said that I had read something of the kind, and 
also that I had seen a sort of parallel in some of the 
Fathers on the subject, but that it did not go so far 
as the modern opinion. But in order not to misun- 
derstand him, and to prevent any mistake as to his 
views, I asked whether I was to understand him as 
implying that, as we regard Eve as the first sinner, 
so we are to regard Mary as the first Savior ; one as 
the author of sin, and the other as the author of the 
remedy. 

He replied that such was precisely the view he 
wished to express, and he added that it was taught 
by St. Alphonso de Liguori, and was a growing opin- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 45 

ion. He seemed to think, from my seriousness of 
manner, that he had made an impression on me very- 
different from the reality, for I was deeply grieved at 
his statement, in which there was not the least allusion 
to Christ. Mary seemed to be substituted for Christ. 
I felt that he had gone very far, but I also felt he 
had not gone further than my own impressions as to 
the religion of Italy, so far as I had seen it. I there- 
fore took the opportunity of saying what otherwise I 
would have been unwilling to express. I introduced 
it by some courteous and apologetic expressions, to 
prevent his taking any offense, and assured him I felt 
happy in being able to speak my mind to one so capa- 
ble of understanding and appreciating my feelings, 
and I prayed him not to be offended at my freedom. 
I then stated, with all the seriousness the subject de- 
manded, and all the solemnity I could command, that, 
from all I had observed of the religion of Italy, wheth- 
er as exhibited in the churches, displayed in proces- 
sions, or expressed in private ; whether as exhibited 
in the forms of prayer, in the object of worship, in the 
books of devotion, or in the conversation of the people, 
it appeared to me to be characterized by one great 
feature, which forced itself unceasingly on my mind. 
It seemed to me that all tended to the honor of Mary 
rather than to the honor of Christ ; and that this 
seemed to me to be carried to such an extreme, that 
I felt in my calm and sober judgment that the relig- 
ion of Italy ought to be called the religion of Mary 
rather than the religion of Christ ! I again apolo- 
gized for so strong an opinion, but added that, feeling 
strongly on the point, I wished to express myself with 



46 MOENINGS AMONG 

a frankness and sincerity, which I hoped he would 
excuse. 

I watched anxiously to see the impression of my 
words ; I feared that, as they would have elicited a 
burst of indignation, real or affected, among the Ro- 
manists of England or of Ireland, so they might pos- 
sibly cause some offense even in Italy ; but it was 
far otherwise. He seemed quite unmoved, as if he 
received my words as a matter of course — as express- 
ing something very natural and of no unfrequent oc- 
currence. His reply was made with perfect ease and 
entire frankness. 

He stated that my impression was very natural ; 
that such was really the appearance of things ; that, 
coming from Germany, where Christ on the cross was 
the ordinary object of veneration, into Italy, where 
the Virgin Mary was the universal object of rever- 
ence, it was no more than natural such an impression 
should have been created ; that such an impression 
was very much the reality of the case ; and that, to 
his own knowledge, the religion of Italy was latterly 
becoming less and less the religion of Christ ; and 
that " the devotion to the most Holy Virgin," as he 
called it, was certainly on the increase. 

I was perfectly startled, not, indeed, at the state- 
ment itself, for it was too palpably true to escape the 
observation of any one, but that a man, a minister of 
Christianity, should describe such a state of things 
with the manifest approval he exhibited. We were 
shocked. 

He perceived this, and then proceeded to justify 
himself with an ingenuity and address that laid open 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



47 



the system, and exhibited the worship of Mary in a 
new light, at least in a light in which I had never 
seen it before. He stated that there was a great dif- 
ference in the bent or habit of mind between English 
Protestants on one hand and Italian Romanists on 
the other ; that Protestants habitually let their minds 
dwell on Christ's teaching, on Christ working mira- 
cles, and especially on Christ's suffering, bleeding, dy- 
ing on the cross, so that in a Protestant mind the 
great object was Christ in the maturity of his man- 
hood, but that Romanists habitually dwelt on the 
childhood of Christ ; not on the great events that 
were wrought in maturity and manhood, but on those 
interesting scenes which were connected with his 
childhood. He then went on to say that this habit 
of mind led to the great difference, that as Protest- 
ants always dwelt on the suffering and dying Christ, 
so Christ in a Protestant mind was always connected 
with the cross : and that as Romanists constantly 
meditated rather on the childhood of Christ, so Christ 
in a Romanist's mind was usually associated with his 
mother, the Virgin Mary. He then continued to say 
that the constant dwelling of the mind in contempla- 
tion on the child naturally led to more thought, more 
contemplation, more affection, and, finally, more de- 
votion for the mother ; that when one thinks on all 
the little scenes of His childhood, dwells on the little 
incidents of interest between the child Jesus and the 
mother Mary, recollects that she had him enshrined 
in her womb, that she used to lead him by the hand, 
that she had listened to all his innocent prattle, that 
she had observed the opening of his mind, and that 



48 MORNINGS AMONG 

during all those days of his happy childhood she, and 
she alone of all the world, knew that little child whom 
she bore in her womb, and nursed at her breasts, and 
fondled in her arms, was her God ; that when a man 
thinks, and habitually thinks of all this, the natural 
result is, that his affections will be more drawn out, 
and his feelings of devotion more elevated toward 
Mary. And he concluded by stating that this habit 
of mind was becoming more general, and that it was 
to it that he would attribute the great increase that 
late years had witnessed in the devotion to the Vir- 
gin Mary. 

My wife and myself were much struck with all 
this. It was, I must freely acknowledge, perfectly 
new to me, and greatly interested us. It was a new 
view of the system, of the means by which the sys- 
tem is spread, and quite a new phase of mind ; while 
the pleasing manner, and evident sincerity and en- 
thusiasm of the man, gave an additional charm to his 
words. We did jiot conceal the interest we felt in 
his statement, and he seemed pleased at his success, 
and continued : 

He said that all this devotion to Mary, however 
repugnant to the feelings and judgments of Protest- 
ants, was capable of being justified, or at least was 
capable of being accounted for on a principle very well 
known, and recognized among Protestants themselves. 
He said it was to be ascribed to the feeling universal 
among Romanists, that the Virgin Mary was more 
merciful, more gentle, and more ready to hear than 
Christ ; and he added, that among Protestants it was 
often thought that the Son, Jesus Christ, was more 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 49 

merciful, gentle, and ready to hear than God the Fa- 
ther, from their feeling that in the manhood of Jesus 
Christ there is that which creates a sympathy in Him 
with them ; and that in the same way Romanists feel 
that there is even more in the Virgin Mary common 
with them, so as to create still greater sympathy on 
her part. 

On my wife remarking here upon the unsoundness 
of the idea which he attributed to Protestants, name- 
ly, regarding the Son as more merciful, and gentle, 
and ready to hear than the Father, adding that the 
Father showed his love in giving his Son, as much as 
the Son in giving himself — on this he at once assent- 
ed that the principle was unsound and wrong, and in- 
volved a very false view of the Godhead, but that yet 
there were many among Protestants who held it in 
their ignorance ; and that many of them, influenced 
by it, do actually pray to the Son more than to the 
Father. They feel that the Son is Man as well as 
God, and that manhood insures a sympathy which 
makes him more accessible ; and that the Romanists 
feel that Mary is altogether of their own nature, and 
that this insures a more perfect sympathy, so as to 
make Mary more accessible than Christ, and that this 
feeling leads them to pray with more frequency, as 
well as with more confidence, to Mary than to Christ. 

It was impossible not to recognize the ingenuity of 
this, and, at the same time, it was as impossible not 
to acknowledge that there was too much justice in 
what he stated as to the feeling of many Protestants. 
But it was saddening indeed to the heart to witness 
the wiles and subtleties with which the fallen heart is 

C 



50 MORNINGS AMONG 

ensnared and the fallen intellect entangled ; and still 
more saddening, even to fearfulness and trembling, to 
hear the Savior practically dethroned from his High 
Priesthood and Mediatorship, and one of his creatures 
exalted to his place, as the object of affection, devo- 
tion, and prayer, on the ground of so awful an error 
as that Mary is more merciful, more gentle, and more 
ready to hear than Christ. I knew the danger of 
speaking out — of speaking my opinions openly, and 
yet I could not let such a statement pass without some 
notice ; that, even if iif had no effect on him, would at 
least clear my own conscience. So I spoke of the love 
of Christ — a love exhibited in leaving the heavens for 
us ; a love exhibited in all the sweetness of his words ; 
a love exhibited in all the benevolence of his acts; and, 
above all, a love exhibited in all the mysterious agony 
in the garden, the infinite sufferings of the judgment 
hall, and the awful scenes of Calvary — even a love 
still exhibited in the heavens, where he yet pleads for 
the sinner, as if heaven were no heaven to him if his 
people be not there ! And I asked how it was possi- 
ble that there could be imagined a Being more merci- 
ful, more gentle, or more ready to hear? " God com- 
mended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet 
sinners, Christ died for us ;" and " greater love hath 
no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his 
friend;" and again, He pleads himself with us, "Can 
a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not 
have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they 
may forget, yet will I not forget thee." Here indeed 
is love expressed and proved, and there is neither love 
expressed nor love proved by the Virgin Mary ; while 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 51 

it seems the basest ingratitude, the most heartless re- 
turn to a Savior of such infinite love, " a love that 
passeth knowledge," to harbor for one moment the 
thought that it could be surpassed, especially by one 
who at the best is but a creature still. 

I do not think that this produced any serious im- 
pression on my companion ; and certainly it had no 
effect on his reasoning further than to say that he 
thought it a wrong principle for Protestants to regard 
Christ as more merciful than the Father, and so mak- 
ing that a ground for praying more frequently to him ; 
but that it was the very same principle, only applied 
to the Virgin Mary, that led the Church of Rome to 
regard her as more merciful than Christ, and there- 
fore to pray more frequently to her. 

I observed here that this took away the ground on 
which they prayed to Mary so much more frequently 
than to Christ ; and that, to say the least of the sys- 
tem, the praying to her more frequently than to him 
bore the complexion of idolatry — as lowering him and 
exalting her, and giving the love, the devotion, the 
prayers to Mary, which ought to be rendered to God 
alone. 

He rejoined by saying that there was a distinction 
always observed in the minds of the people between 
the worship rendered to Christ and the worship ren- 
dered to Mary. 

I replied, that although the more intelligent and 
enlightened of the Roman Church might understand 
and be able to maintain that distinction while in the 
act of worship, yet it was evident that the mass of the 
population, and of the children, were both incapable of 



52 MOBNINGS AMONG 

understanding it or of observing it. I added that the 
distinction of their theologians between Latria, Dulia, 
and Hyperdulia had never been clearly defined, and 
that I had never met a member of the Church of 
Rome, whether ecclesiastical or lay, who could clearly 
state the difference between them. 

In answer to this, he said that, however difficult it 
was to explain — afid he acknowledged it was very dif- 
ficult, yet it was universally known and understood — 
that the youngest children and the most ignorant 
adults all recognized the distinction, and could never 
fall into any mistake respecting it; but that, feeling 
that Christ was the Almighty God infinitely above 
them, and that Mary was a creature like themselves, 
and of the same human feelings with themselves, they 
conceived she would have more sympathies with them, 
and therefore they prayed more frequently to her.* 

To this I rejoined by again expressing my convic- 
tion that it was impossible that the mass of the poor 
and ignorant people could understand the distinctions 
which their most learned theologians were unable to 
explain ; that although they were told that latria be- 
longed to God, hyperdulia to the Virgin, and dulia to 
the saints — that although they were told of these three 
kinds of worship, yet they could not distinguish be- 
tween them, and most certainly could not act upon 
them ; that frequently they prayed in the same form 
for the same objects, and in the very same words, to 
God, and to Mary, and to the saints, without making 
the least difference between them. 

I then referred to the well-known prayer, to the 
saying of which, in the year 1817, an indulgence of 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 53 

three hundred days was attached. It was in the 
words : 

" Jesus, Joseph, Mary, I give you my heart and 
soul; 

« Jesus, Joseph, Mary, assist me in my last agony; 

11 Jesus, Joseph, Mary, I breathe my soul to you 
in peace." 

Here, I said, was a prayer addressed to God, to 
the Virgin, and to a saint — addressed to one and all 
alike, addressing them for the very same objects, and 
making no distinction whatever between them. Here 
was a case in which the three degrees of worship were 
all demanded. There was God, for whom latria was 
required ; hyperdulia for the Virgin ; and dulia for 
Joseph. And I added, that as the people used the 
same words to each — employed the same form of pe- 
tition to each — asked for the same things from each 
— offered and expressed the same devotion to each, it 
could hardly be asserted that they were not worship, 
ing them all alike. 

He evidently felt this a great difficulty. He ac- 
knowledged that he knew the prayer, and that it was 
of frequent use among the people, and that at first 
appearance it looked objectionable ; but he insisted 
that the people knew the distinction so well, that no 
man, or woman, or child could possibly fall into the 
error of praying to God, and Mary, and Joseph alike. 
It might appear to me that their words, and form, and 
manner of worship being the same, the worship itself 
was the same ; but that nothing was more certain 
than that they observed a distinction in their own 
minds, and did not really pray to them, or worship 



54 MORNINGS AMONG 

them alike, even in that prayer, which was addressed 
to Jesus, Joseph, and Mary simultaneously. 

I felt that reasoning further on this precise point 
was neither profitable nor judicious, and therefore 
only remarked that I was well able to judge of the 
form of prayer itself, and knew that it was addressed 
to all alike, but that, as to distinctions in the minds 
of the people, neither he nor I could be competent 
judges. Neither of us could read the heart, and there- 
fore neither of us ought to say any thing as to what 
may or may not be in the secret mind of others. Our 
province is to judge of the outward action, and that 
outward action was one of prayer and devotion to all 
the three alike. 

He made no objection to this, but directed our con- 
versation into another channel. It was some time be- 
fore I could bring him back, without any apparent ef- 
fort, to the same point. He then resumed it by allud- 
ing to something that had passed between us ; and 
then remarked, as he had done on that occasion, that 
the devotion to the Virgin Mary was very popular ; 
that latterly it was become increasingly so ; and that 
he knew personally of many facts that proved it to be 
a growing devotion among all classes. 

My wife remarked that she had been in conversa- 
tion with a religious Italian lady, who w T as lamenting 
the vice and wickedness that abounded in Rome, and 
who concluded by saying that her only consolation 
and hope for Rome was, that the devotion to the Most 
Holy Mary, santissima Maria, was so much on the 
increase ! 

He stated that such was the fact, and proceeded to 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 55 

relate some little incidents to illustrate it. He men- 
tioned the frequency with which he hears the poor 
and simple people praying to the Virgin, singing 
hymns to her pictures at the corners of the streets 
early in the morning, appealing to her for protection 
in moments of danger ; and he detailed a scene which 
he had himself witnessed. It was the case of a very 
little child, that conceived itself in great danger, and 
immediately cried aloud to the Virgin, " O Mamma, 
Mamma Mia, Mamma Mia, O Mamma !" He sup- 
posed the little child so well taught to regard the Vir- 
gin Mary as her heavenly Mother, and so truly pious 
and devoted, as to have addressed these words to her ; 
and he was touched to tears — the tear glistened in 
his eye as he told the incident, being evidently 
touched at the idea of so much piety in so young a 
child. 

I remarked at the moment that to me it seemed as 
if the child was only crying for its own mother — at 
least it was like the cry of some child in England, 
who had never heard of the Virgin Mary. 

He said that in the case he mentioned there was 
no doubt that it was the cry of a child appealing to 
its heavenly Mother. He added that there was some- 
thing among the Italians — something in the Italian 
mind, and Italian feeling, that led them particularly 
to devotion T;o the Virgin; that while in Germany 
the prayers of the Roman Catholics are directed to 
the crucifix, to the figure of our Lord upon the cross, 
it is quite otherwise in Italy, where all the devotion 
of the people, and all their prayers, are addressed to 
the pictures and images of Mary ; that, however it 



56 MORNINGS AMONG 

was to be accounted for, the fact was so, and that it 
was increasing, and likely to increase yet more. 

I remarked that his words seemed to imply that 
there was a process of change gradually going on in 
the Church of Rome in reference to the Virgin, and 
that thus the religion of Rome was becoming more 
and more the religion of Mary. I then added that I 
had seen some remarkable things in a work by St. 
Alphonso de Liguori. It was entitled " The Glories 
of Mary," and, among other things, described the vi- 
sion of St. Bernard, in which he beheld two ladders 
extending from earth to heaven — two ways by which 
the sinner could have access to heaven. At the top 
of one ladder appeared Jesus Christ ; at the top of the 
other ladder appeared the Virgin Mary ; and that, 
while those who endeavored to enter into heaven by 
the way of Christ's ladder fell constantly back and 
utterly failed, those, on the other hand, who tried to 
enter by the ladder of Mary, all succeeded, because 
she put forth her hands to assist and encourage them. 
I mentioned, also, that I had seen this as an altar 
piece in a church at Milan, where the two ladders 
were represented reaching from earth to heaven ; Je- 
sus Christ at the head of one, and Mary at the head 
of the other ; and while none were succeeding by the 
ladder of Christ, all were succeeding by the ladder of 
the Virgin ! I added that this was degrading Christ 
in order to exalt the Virgin, and that it was repre- 
senting her as a more merciful and effectual Savior 
than the Savior himself! I felt that I could apply 
no other language to this than that I could not im- 
agine a more hideous blasphemy than the language 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 57 

of Liguori, or a more frightful sacrilege than such a 
picture beside the altar of a church. 

He said mildly that he could not approve of such 
things ; that such things undoubtedly were often said 
and often done, but that, for himself, he could not do 
otherwise than condemn them; that, though he could 
not go so far as to apply to them such strong lan- 
guage as blasphemy and sacrilege, yet he could not 
but most strongly disapprove of them ; but still he be- 
lieved they were capable, when rightly interpreted, of 
being understood in an orthodox and unobjectionable 
sense. 

I then alluded to other pictures of the Virgin Mary, 
and I reprobated the practice of representing Mary as 
the chief or principal figure in the picture, and Jesus 
Christ being introduced as a subordinate figure — as a 
figure that was merely accessory to hers, a sort of ap- 
pendage to her, as if he was introduced merely to show 
that the figure of a female was intended as the figure 
of Mary — as if, there being innumerable female fig- 
ures in such pictures, figures of various saints, it was 
necessary to introduce the child Jesus to show that 
this female figure was intended for Mary. The fig- 
ure of St. Catharine is recognized from all others by 
the introduction of the wheel. The figure of St. Mar- 
garet is similarly distinguished by the introduction of 
a tower. In precisely the same spirit, the figure of 
Mary is recognized by the introduction of the infant 
Jesus. But, as with St. Catharine and St. Margaret 
the wheel and the tower are mere accessories by which 
they may be recognized, so, in the pictures of Mary, 
the child Jesus is nothing else than a mere acces- 

C 2 



58 MORNINGS AMONG 

sory to identify her ! I expressed myself strongly 
against this practice as an awful dishonor to Christ. 
It was making God the creator a mere secondary to 
a creature. 

He again expressed himself as disapproving of such 
pictures, saying that, although others approved of and 
liked them, yet he did not think them altogether jus- 
tifiable. 

I then called his attention to a large number of 
pictures to be seen in almost every church. They 
are designed to represent the Virgin Mary in heaven, 
enthroned above the clouds, and encircled by angels 
and cherubs, and even there she is represented with 
the infant Jesus in her arms ! It could not possibly 
be that either the artists who paint, or the priests who 
suspend those pictures over the altar, suppose that 
Jesus Christ is now an infant still, in the arms of 
Mary in heaven — that He is still an infant in heav- 
en; and therefore it is apparent that He is introduced, 
thus absurdly and improperly, as a mere accessory to 
distinguish the figure of Mary from the figure of any 
other saint ! I added that there were few things in 
the Church of Rome that so offended us, as dishonor- 
ing to Christ, as this system of making Mary the 
principal person, and Christ only the secondary per- 
son in their pictures. It seemed an index of the state 
of Italian religion, in which Mary seemed first, and 
Christ second in prominence, as if it was the religion 
of Mary rather than the religion of Christ. I added 
yet further, that it was singular that in the Church 
of Gesu e Maria in the Corso, where the sermons are 
preached in English for the conversion of the English, 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 59 

there are no less than three large altar pieces — pic- 
tures larger than life — representing the Virgin Mary 
with the infant Jesus in heaven ! 

He said that he quite agreed with me that such 
things ought not to be ; that the representing Mary 
as enthroned in heaven, and our Lord as a child in 
her arms, was ignorant, absurd, and untrue — contrary 
to right teaching ; but that, unhappily, there was too 
much of it. He went on to say that the Church had 
never done it — never sanctioned it ; and although it 
certainly was done, yet as certainly it was without 
the sanction or approval of the Church. 

I said that the Church had tacitly sanctioned it. 
It had ever been held that where any doctrine or prac- 
tice had been propagated, and the Church had not in- 
terfered with it or condemned it, that she was then 
to be regarded as permitting it. I said that in this 
way the Church tacitly sanctioned the practice ; for 
as these things were not done in a corner, but were 
dene in a large portion of the churches, so they must 
be known to the authorities and permitted by them. 
I alluded to a picture of the Virgin in the chapel un- 
der St. Peter's, with an inscription that it had mirac- 
ulously shed blood when struck with a stone ; and an- 
other picture of the Virgin at Arezzo, which had mi- 
raculously shed tears of grief at hearing the profane 
language of some drunkards ; arid another picture of 
her that was shown at Rome, which miraculously 
wept before the whole congregation at the invasion of 
the French ; and, more strange than all, a picture of 
the Virgin and child at Lucca, of which it was af- 
firmed that, when some one flung a stone at the face 



60 MORNINGS AMONG 

of the child, she most wonderfully transferred the child 
to the other arm, and thus saved it from injury — a 
wonder indeed for a mere picture to perform ! I ar- 
gued that all these, and a thousand similar things, 
were known to the authorities, and therefore the 
Church, by permitting them, did tacitly sanction 
them, and must be held responsible. 

He replied by stating that many of these things 
were undoubtedly untrue, but that many of them 
were undoubtedly true ; that in either case the Church 
had never given her authority to any of them ; that 
individual priests, and bishops, and even popes be- 
lieved and sanctioned them, but the Church had nev- 
er done so. He added that, although they were ex- 
hibited in churches, approved by the priests of those 
churches, and sanctioned by inscriptions on the walls 
of the churches, yet they were not authorized by the 
Church. The people might believe or might not be- 
lieve them, but the Church was not responsible. She 
left her people at liberty, and the responsibility lay 
with the priests and people themselves, and not with 
the Church. 

I said, in return, that I was to infer that a belief 
in such miraculous pictures of the Virgin Mary was 
not confined to the ignorant of the populace, but was 
received among the learned and enlightened of the 
priesthood. His words seemed to imply as much. 

He at once replied that he could not answer for 
others, but that, for himself, he did not believe the 
greater portion of such narratives ; that the Roman 
Breviary was full of such tales of wonders and mira- 
cles, as of men whose heads were cut off, and yet whc 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 6 j 

afterward took up their own heads and carried them 
away in their hands ! He added, laughing, that he 
could not believe such things, of which some were un- 
reasonable and foolish, and even known and proved to 
be false and impossible. 

In the Church of S. Stefano Rotundo, among other 
representations of martyrdom, S. Dionysius is repre- 
sented as walking in full episcopal robes at the head 
of a procession, holding his head streaming with blood 
in his hands ! It is said that, after being decapita- 
ted, he quietly took up his own head in his hands, and 
walked away with it, to the no small astonishment 
of all ! 

This was as much as I could expect. I pressed 
him no more on the subject, and soon after our inter- 
view ended. 



CHAPTER III. 

A Visit from a Convert to Romanism — Argument drawn from his Ex- 
perience of Happiness — Motive to Rest entirely on the Infallibility 
of the Church — The Infallible Tribunal among Protestants contrasted 
with that among Romanists— Arguments for Infallibility — The Scrip- 
tures — Tradition — The Fathers. 

I expected the promised visit of a reverend gentle- 
man who had originally been a Protestant, and had 
entered the Church of Rome. 

Our conversation commenced, after his arrival, by 
my observing to him that I understood he had once 
been a Protestant, and that he had now become a Ro- 



62 MORNINGS AMONG 

man Catholic. I expressed myself as much gratified 
in making his acquaintance, and being able thus to 
state my opinions, feelings, and difficulties to one who 
could understand and appreciate them. I had felt that 
much and many of the difficulties that pressed upon 
the mind of an English Protestant were altogether un- 
intelligible to a mind so peculiarly constituted and ha- 
bituated as that of an Italian Romanist ; that it might 
therefore be feared that my feelings could scarcely be 
adequately appreciated by our mutual friend, the Padre 

M , so as to enlist his sympathies ; but that, now 

that I had to converse with one who had himself been 
a Protestant, I felt assured that he would understand 
and sympathize with me. 

He replied by stating that he had always, until his 
arrival at Rome, been a Protestant ; that, after a long 
and painful struggle, he was convinced of the course 
which it became him to pursue ; that he therefore 
came to Rome, and, after some communication with 
the Jesuits there, formally renounced his former opin- 
ions, and was received as a member of the Church of 
Rome. He entered into some details of his former his- 
tory — in fact, the story of his life, and concluded by 
saying that he had never known peace or happiness 
until he had taken the final step ; and then, and from 
that moment, he had experienced a tranquillity of 
mind and a satisfaction of feeling, a joy and delight 
which he had never known before. Instead of being 
disturbed in mind, he felt calm ; instead of being rest- 
less, he had peace ; instead of unhappiness, he had full 
satisfaction ; instead of uncertainty, he had the most 
perfect certainty ; and thus, from the moment of his 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 53 

seeking rest in the bosom of His Holy Mother the 
Church of Rome, like the wandering child in the bo- 
som of its loving mother, he experienced in her embrace 
and communion the most perfect happiness. He then 
added that he believed this happiness was experienced 
by all who, like him, embraced the Church of Rome; 
that he knew it to be the experience of others as well 
as his own ; that he could not regard it otherwise than 
as the special gift and blessing of God — the reward of 
Heaven to those who entered his true Church ; and 
that, if I took the same step, I should assuredly be 
partaker of the same reward. 

I answered all this by stating that I could well un- 
derstand it, as I had seen very much of the same na- 
ture in the case of persons who had acted in a manner 
the very opposite to that which he had adopted. I 
had known many persons, who had been brought up 
from infancy in all the principles and practices of the 
Church of Rome, who, by the reading of the Holy 
Scriptures, or by hearing the preaching of the Gospel, 
had been led to entertain doubts as to the verity of 
their former faith, and to receive and adopt the simple 
and scriptural principles of Protestantism, and so to 
go on to the final step of embracing the communion 
of Protestants ; and such persons had often told me 
of the peace of mind and happiness of heart — the gush 
of joy and delight that they experienced in forsaking 
by that act what they regarded as the unscriptural 
and unstable errors of one church for the scriptural 
and stable truth of the other, speaking with rapturous 
ecstasy of peace and joy which they had never known 
before and of the sweetness of which they had previ- 



64 MORNINGS AMONG 

ously had no conception. I added that I supposed this 
feeling among those who embraced the Roman faith 
and among those who embraced the Protestant faith — 
this feeling common to both alike, may arise from the 
casting aside the doubts and difficulties that had pre 
viously occupied and absorbed the mind, but that I 
could not regard it as a reward or recompense for the 
final step — that I could not think that God would 
give this reward to both sides, to the Romanist for 
embracing Protestantism, and to the Protestant for 
embracing Romanism. 

He said, in return, that he had sometimes heard of 
such things, and that he was not quite sure whether 
he ought to doubt or acknowledge them ; but that, for 
himself and his own experience, he could entertain nc 
doubt whatever. For years the conflict had raged 
within him ; principle struggled with principle ; one 
series of apparent truths held conflict with another se- 
ries of truths equally apparent, till he was tossed to 
and fro, and reeled like a ship upon the waves, now 
inclining to Protestantism, and then leaning to Ro- 
manism, till he felt all faith giving way, and, to save 
himself from infidelity, he resolved to embrace the 
Church of Rome ; that, if he had not done so, he must 
certainly have ended in infidelity ; that he had been 
rushing headlong into that awful abyss, till he was 
saved by entering the Church of Rome, and from that 
moment all was peace and joy, every doubt vanished 
and every difficulty fled away,, and all was now tran- 
quillity and happiness. He then assured me that if 
I would only take the same course ; if I would resolve 
to fling away my doubts and difficulties ; if, instead 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 55 

of making objections, and answering arguments, and 
requiring reasons and proofs ; if, instead of all this, I 
would but fling them to the winds, and boldly and un- 
hesitatingly enter the Church of Rome, I should escape 
all the harassing anxieties of doubt, and all the awful- 
ness of infidelity, and receive my reward in the peace- 
fulness and tranquillity of soul which he had himself 
experienced, and which it was absolutely impossible 1 
could ever experience otherwise ; for that I must else 
continue in doubt and difficulty, and that my doubts 
must increase, and my difficulty become still more dif- 
ficult, and my whole mind become so mystified, and 
perplexed, and entangled, that I must end in infidelity. 
There was no escape but in the Church of Rome. 

I could not but smile, while I thanked him for his 
anxiety about my doubts and difficulties ; and I as- 
sured him that I had never any doubt or difficulty as 
to the truth of all required of me as a member of the 
Church of England ; that the only doubts and diffi- 
culties of which I was conscious had reference, not to 
the Church of England, but to the Church of Rome ; 
that, residing as I then was in the city of Rome, the 
seat of that Church, I was forced to consider w T hether 
I could hold communion with her ; that, having been 
invited to join myself to her, I felt doubts and difficul- 
ties of so cogent a nature, in my judgment, to such a 
step, that I had not done so ; and that I never could do 
so, unless my objections to the Church of Rome were 
fully removed. I added that my previous communi- 
cations with Padre M arose from his proposal 

that I should freely state my objections, and thus give 
him an opportunity of answering and removing them. 



66 MORNINGS AMONG 

He replied by saying that he had been under a mis- 
take, but that it need not affect our communications, 
as he could quite understand and enter into my feel- 
ings on the point, the more so as he had himself had 
long and sad experience of the same state of mind ; 
that he had indeed been bitterly tried and sadly per- 
plexed by difficulties, by prejudices, and by distastes ; 
that he was conscious of a feeling amounting to re- 
pugnance and loathing of some things, and seemingly 
an impossibility of believing others ; that in all these 
he had probably felt as many and as great difficulties 
as those which now stood in my way, and opposed my 
union with the Church of Rome ; and that, if he had 
listened to them, and continued to argue them out, as 
I seemed disposed to do, he should probably have con- 
tinued a Protestant to the present day, or rather, as 
he immediately corrected himself, he should probably 
have become an infidel, for he had brought himself to 
that pass that he had reasoned himself into the belief 
that the Church or religion of Rome seemed to him 
more natural, more reasonable, more consistent, and 
better put together than the Church or religion of 
Christ, so far as it could be gathered from the Scrip- 
tures, and thus he must become either a Catholic or 
an infidel, embracing the Church of Rome or none at 
all. He continued to say that my only as well as my 
most comfortable course was to fling aside all my men- 
tal difficulties, no longer to debate or argue the objec- 
tions, but, remembering they had all been already de- 
cided by the infallible authority of the Church, dismiss 
them forever from my mind ; that he had himself felt 
the advantage and comfort of this, for that a doubt on 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 57 

any point — as, for example, on Transubstantiation — 
never crossed his mind. Whatever difficulties might 
exist, they never troubled him now, for he laid them 
all on the tribunal which had already infallibly decided 
them. 

I said, in reply to all this, that I could well under- 
stand such a course as an easy and effectual way of 
disposing of some difficulties, and that I had long been 
in the habit of acting on it. I fully felt the value, 
and, indeed, the necessity, for a tribunal — an infalli- 
ble tribunal, to determine the religious difficulties of 
my mind, and I knew and felt they could not be satis- 
factorily and safely determined by mere human au- 
thority, my mind being so constituted as to require 
the decision of Divine authority to satisfy it, and that 
I therefore felt the necessity of referring all to an in- 
fallible authority. 

My friend seemed to accept this as all he required, 
and was about to proceed with his argument, when I 
continued to say that I had found and felt that the 
Holy Scriptures were the Word of God ; that they 
were inspired by Him, and therefore were infallible ; 
that, being of Divine, and not mere human authority, 
they were an infallible tribunal, to whose decisions 
our difficulties should be referred ; that, by God's grace 
and mercy, my mind was completely subdued and sub- 
missive to them ; so subdued and submissive, that, no 
matter how opposed to previous convictions any state- 
ment might be, yet if only it was clearly maintained 
or justified by the Holy Scriptures, I at once bowed 
to it as of Divine and infallible authority. I added 
that the difference between him and me was, that he 



68 MORNINGS AMONG 

bowed to a supposed # authority, the inspiration and di- 
vinity of which I denied, while I bowed to an author- 
ity whose inspiration and divinity was admitted by all. 
He yielded to the decisions of the papal bulls, while I 
bowed to the decisions of the Holy Scriptures. 

His answer to this was precisely what I had antic- 
ipated. He acknowledged that, in appealing to the 
Holy Scriptures, the Protestants appealed to that 
which must be recognized as an infallible tribunal, 
but that he objected to the practical inutility of the 
Holy Scriptures to such a purpose, as unfitted and in- 
adequate to the wants of the Church. He argued 
that this unfitness and inadequacy arose from their 
liability to a variety of interpretations on the part of 
a variety of persons ; that if ten men could be pro- 
duced united on one interpretation, he could produce 
ten more insisting upon some opposite or different one, 
and neither had right or authority to say the other 
was wrong ; and thence he argued that this liability 
to a diversity of interpretation was a fatal objection 
to the fitness or adequacy of the Holy Scriptures for 
the determination of controversies or the solution of 
difficulties. 

I rejoined to this, that although the argument has 
often before been urged in many works of controversy, 
yet it had never seemed to me to have weight in the 
matter for which it was adduced, because the very 
same objection, in all its force, was as applicable to 
the system of the Church of Rome. If appeal be 
made to the canon law ; if reference be made to the 
writings of the primitive fathers ; if the appeal be 
made to the decrees of councils ; if the reference be 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



69 



made to the bulls of popes ; if, in short, it be made to 
any documents supposed to contain the infallible mind 
of the Church, there will be found as great a diversity 
of interpretation as if the reference be made to the 
Holy Scriptures. They all have been and still are 
as liable to diversity of interpretation as the Holy 
Scriptures ; so that, if he could produce ten men for 
one interpretation, I could produce ten more for a dif- 
ferent interpretation ; and for every ten Roman Cath- 
olic authors whom he might adduce as teaching in- 
fallibility as residing in the popes and not in the coun- 
cils, I could adduce ten others teaching that infalli- 
bility resides in the councils and not in the popes. 
And I argued, that if a liability to a diversity of in- 
terpretation or variety of opinion were an adequate 
objection to the Holy Scriptures as the final tribunal 
of appeal in questions of religion, then a similar lia- 
bility must be an adequate objection against the writ- 
ings of the fathers, the canons of Rome, the decrees of 
councils, or the bulls of popes. They all were liable 
to diversity of interpretation and variety of opinion. 

He acknowledged frankly and at once that he 
thought my answer was sufficient, so far as those 
writings, canons, decrees, and bulls, that have been 
already passed or written, are concerned. They are 
now written documents, and, as such, they necessa- 
rily become liable to various interpretations in the 
hands of able and subtle men. They are all, there- 
fore, in the same category, and liable to the same ob- 
jection as the Holy Scriptures. He would fully ad- 
mit all this. But he thought that the great advant- 
age of the Church of Rome consisted in having one 



70 MORNINGS AMONG 

who, as the head of the Church, was a living and 
speaking Judge, who could at any moment determine 
infallibly the question under debate ; and that it was 
better to refer such question to the infallible decision 
of the pope, as head of the Church, than to the Holy 
Scriptures, which every disputant would interpret as 
suited his purpose. He then went on to speak of the 
comfort of being able to fling away the mental diffi- 
culties and intellectual doubtings with which some 
minds were oppressed, stating how he had felt it in 
his own experience, and that I could never know the 
end of such difficulties and doubtings until, like him, 
I resolved to cast them all aside, and lay the respons- 
ibility of all the right or wrong, all the truth or er- 
ror connected with them, on the infallibility of this 
infallible authority. And he concluded by saying, in 
very complimentary terms, that as my mind was an 
inquiring one, and also a logical one, it was the more 
necessary for me to take this course, as it was evi- 
dent, from the very character of my mind, that I must 
end in infidelity if I did not embrace Catholicity. 

I thanked him with all courtesy for the compli- 
mentary terms in which he was pleased to describe 
the character of my mind, and I earnestly begged that 
he would accept the inquiring and logical nature of 
my mind in apology for pressing so much for proofs 
and evidences before I received any important state- 
ment. The character of my mind required proofs, 
and must be my excuse to him for asking what proof, 
what evidence, what argument he could adduce, on 
which he would ask me to believe in the existence of 
any infallible tribunal on earth other and besides the 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 7j 

Holy Scriptures. I observed that he had repeatedly 
asserted the existence of such infallible tribunal ; that 
he had offered it to me as a panacea or remedy for all 
my difficulties ; that he pressed it as a resolver of all 
my objections to the Church of Rome;, that he avow- 
ed it as the basis of all his faith as touching eternity ; 
and that he presented the whole system of his relig- 
ion, his faith and hope, and the important step of 
embracing the Church of Rome, as founded upon one 
point, namely, that there was a living and speaking 
infallible tribunal on earth other and besides the Holy 
Scriptures. I therefore asked with all earnestness and 
solemnity, As you say my mind is a logical one, so 
you will believe that my mind requires a clear, co- 
gent, unanswerable proof of the actual existence of 
such a tribunal ; and I therefore ask, On what evi- 
dence, proof, or argument, do you present it to me ? 
You say that all — Catholicity, Protestantism, infidel- 
ity, depend on the reception or rejection of it. Heav- 
en and hell depend on it. It requires a strong foun- 
dation, for it has much to carry. 

He assented to this, and said he would at once en- 
ter on the question. He then proceeded to say that 
one argument for the existence of this tribunal was 
Necessity. He referred to the variety of opinions 
that agitate and distract the Church ; to the conflict- 
ing elements which characterize the different sects ; 
to the difficulties that beset the pathway of every in- 
quirer ; to the doubts and conflicts that perpetually 
oppress the minds of thinking men ; to the difficulties 
apparently, perhaps really, insurmountable, that sur- 
round some minds — he referred to these as creating a 



72 MOENINGS AMONG 

necessity for some tribunal. He said the minds of 
men were in doubt, and an infallible tribunal is nee- 
essary to resolve those doubts ; that there are divers- 
ities of opinions as to faith and practice agitating 
various sections of the Church, and an infallible tribu- 
nal is necessary to decide between them ; that there 
were sects and schisms innumerable, all maintaining 
opposite doctrines, and an infallible tribunal is neces- 
sary to determine and settle all. He thus based his 
argument on the supposed necessity. 

To this I replied by saying that in the Holy 
Scriptures we possess that which all Christian church- 
es regarded as the word of God, and therefore infalli 
ble, and that the necessity of which he spoke was 
thus fully provided for. We have in them an infal- 
lible tribunal, and we see no necessity for any other, 
and especially such a one as decrees of councils or 
bulls of popes, which are often directly contradictory 
and opposed to one another, and all of which are lia- 
ble to diversity of interpretation as much as the Holy 
Scripture, so that we gain -nothing by leaving the 
Scriptures and flying to them. I then added that he 
had assumed a necessity for some infallible tribunal, 
and I appealed to him, asking whether, as a logician, 
he was satisfied with his own argument ; whether it 
was good logic or sound reasoning to say that there 
are diversities of opinion, and therefore there is a 
necessity for an infallible tribunal, and therefore there 
is such a tribunal ; whether such a syllogism could 
be used in the College of Nobles, of which he was a 
tutor ; where was the vis consequents by which he 
could conclude the existence of a thing from the im- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



73 



aginary necessity or convenience of the thing. I ask- 
ed whether, as a logician, he really thought that so 
important a point as the existence of an infallible tri- 
bunal was sufficiently demonstrated by a mere opin- 
ion of the great convenience or necessity for it in the 
present state of the Church; and I asked further, 
whether, as a Christian, he would think me justified 
in placing all my faith on that which seemed so in- 
adequately proved. 

He paused some time before he replied. It appear- 
ed to me, as I observed him, that he was struggling 
with himself, as if he felt that the answer he was 
about to give was other than he wished. His man- 
ner was different from the confidence and self-posses- 
sion he had previously shown. After some moments, 
he smiled good-humoredly at his own argument, as it 
seemed to me, and he frankly stated that it did not 
satisfy himself; that he could not defend the logic of 
it ; and that, of course, the argument must go for 
nothing ; adding freely, and with a good-humored 
smile, that he thought I should not be justified in 
changing my religious views upon such grounds. 

I could not, after so frank an admission on his part, 
press further on the point ; but I asked him whether 
he could advance any further and more satisfactory 
argument, reminding him that he had asked me to 
cast aside all my reasonings, my doubtings, my diffi- 
culties, and my objections, and to lay the solution 
and responsibility of all on the infallible tribunal ; 
and that the argument ought therefore to be logical, 
clear, cogent, and unanswerable. 

He answered by saying that he could prove its ex- 

D 



74 MORNINGS AMONG 

istence from the usefulness and convenience of such 
a tribunal — so useful and convenient that we must 
suppose a good and beneficent God must have grant- 
ed it to the Church. He then repeated his former 
statement, touching similarly on the doubts, the divi- 
sions, the conflicts, the sects of the Church ; and he 
argued that an infallible tribunal would be so desira- 
ble, so advantageous, so consistent with the goodness 
and beneficence of God, in order to remedy these evils 
in the Church, that God may well be supposed to 
have established a tribunal so useful and convenient. 

I asked him quietly, Do you yourself think that 
your proving it to be convenient, or useful, or desira- 
ble for the Church is really proving that it does exist 
in the Church ? Do you yourself think that in logic 
you are justified in inferring the existence of any 
thing from the supposed usefulness of the thing ? 

He at once and with the utmost candor admitted 
that his argument had so far failed, that I should not 
be justified in believing the existence of an infallible 
tribunal on the grounds he had stated. He seemed 
perplexed, as if unprepared to enter further on the 
argument, or as if he had never before considered the 
point with sufficient care. I was much surprised at 
his apparent confusion, and could not well understand 
his being so unprepared on so important a question. 

I added, however, that the supposed convenience 
and usefulness of an infallible tribunal was the argu- 
ment most generally urged in its behalf — the argu- 
ment usually unfolded in writing, and urged in con- 
versation, at least so far as my personal experience 
extended, so that it seemed to me to be the main ba- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 75 

sis or foundation of this important matter ; and that 
I really was unable to understand how thinking and 
earnest men eould hazard all their faith and hope, and 
peril all the destinies of eternity, on a principle found- 
ed, as it seemed to my poor judgment, on so frail and 
inadequate a basis. I felt myself that I could not do 
so. It would, I acknowledged, undoubtedly be very 
convenient and useful for us, that hell, with all its 
horrors, should be annihilated, but we are not justi- 
fied in believing, therefore, that hell is annihilated. 
It would also, without any question, be useful and 
convenient for us, beyond expression, that sin should 
be abolished and driven from the world, but we are 
not therefore to infer that sin is so abolished. The 
annihilation of hell, and the abolition of our liability 
to sin, would be an act that in our eyes might seem 
very consistent with the goodness, and compassion, 
and beneficence of God, but we are not thence to in- 
fer that He has annihilated the one or abolished the 
other. And in the same way, I continued, our prov- 
ing the convenience or usefulness of an infallible tri- 
bunal other and besides the Holy Scriptures, or its 
suitableness to the goodness of God, can not be re- 
garded as any adequate argument to prove that God 
has actually established it. The question is, not what 
God could or might have done, but what he has done. 
The conversation now assumed a most unexpected 
phase. He frankly and at once, and with no little 
emotion, acknowledged that his arguments had failed ; 
that my answer was sufficient to set it aside ; that 
his argument was illogical, and that, at the best, all 
he had urged could not prove the matter before us as 



76 MORNINGS AMONG 

so important a point required to be proved. All this 
was confessed so frankly, so unhesitatingly, and with 
so much evident earnestness as it seemed to me, that 
I was quite taken by surprise. I began to imagine 
that perhaps his own belief in an infallible tribunal 
was shaking, and that, "as he so fully surrendered the 
foundations on which he had built it, he might be dis- 
posed to forsake the whole structure itself. 

I paused for some moments to give him time to 
draw his own conclusions, and at least to collect his 
thoughts, for he seemed confused by the position in 
which he unexpectedly found himself. After a while 
I asked, What further argument can you adduce to 
demonstrate the existence of this infallible tribunal? 

He answered, " Really I do not just now recollect 
any other. I thought that these would have been 
enough. " 

I said, " But how do you prove to your own mind 
— how do you at this momont satisfy your own mind 
as to the existence of this infallible tribunal ?" 

He replied, " I have always assumed it — I have al- 
ways assumed it — I have always taken it for granted, 
without further consideration." 

He spoke this with much emotion. I felt for him, 
for he seemed both confused and humbled ; and I 
would not have pressed him further, only that I felt 
I had perhaps a duty to discharge — a duty to the truth 
of God, and a duty to himself, by endeavoring to 
strengthen any doubts that might possibly have been 
raised in his mind. I therefore addressed him with 
much earnestness, and in all the kindness of holy 
brotherhood, reminding him how he had some mo- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



77 



merits before told me that he had abandoned Protest- 
ant principles — forsaken the faith of his fathers — 
given up the creed and religion of his youth, and em- 
braced the whole system of the Church of Rome ; thai 
he had cast all his difficulties, and doubts, and objec- 
tions at the foot of this infallible tribunal, and had 
done despite to his former convictions, and done vio- 
lence to his judgment, and had done so in submissive 
obedience to the decisions of this supposed tribunal ; 
I reminded him, also, of his having invited me to fol- 
low his example, to cease reasoning, to waive objec- 
tions, to fling all aside, and change my church — my 
religion, and stake all the interests of time and the 
destinies of eternity upon the credit of this infallible 
tribunal of the Church of Rome, of whose existence 
or reality he was obliged to acknowledge he had no 
adequate proof. 

He replied, with great feeling, " The truth is, I have 
always assumed it. It never occurred to me in this 
light before. I have never further questioned it. I 
have always assumed it." 

All this portion of our conversation was marked by 
great emotion on his part, and I felt it difficult to ac- 
count for it. My opinions of the controversial skill 
and acumen of the Jesuits made me suspect that he 
was only playing a part to throw me off my guard, 
and lead me to express my real hostility to the Church 
of Rome. I could not understand how a man trained 
in all the intrigues and subtleties of the College of the 
Jesuits, and specially selected to argue with and an- 
swer my objections, could have broken down so soon 
and so easily ; and I was therefore undecided as to 



78 MORNINGS AMONG 

the character of his emotion. Whether it was the 
natural emotion of a controversialist, who felt himself 
foiled when he anticipated an easy victory, or whether 
it was the emotion of one who had periled his all for 
time and eternity upon a position which he now felt 
to be untenable, I was at a loss to determine. Per- 
haps it was not for me to form any opinion. The 
Lord judgeth the heart. I only know that he ex- 
pressed himself with great earnestness and emotion, 
repeatedly placing his hand on his forehead and re- 
peating the words, " I have always assumed it, I have 
always taken it for granted." I did not interrupt the 
train of his thoughts, whatever they were, but left 
him under the guidance of Him who could direct and 
order all his thoughts to the highest and holiest ends. 
I felt, however, that if my friend was sincere, his be- 
lief in the Church of Rome was already shaken in its 
most vital part. 

Some visitors were at this moment announced, and 
our conversation was interrupted for a short time. 
During fhe pause he seemed to be collecting his 
thoughts and recovering himself, and as my object in 
all my communication with him and others was not 
so much to overthrow his positions and refute his ar- 
guments as to draw him out so as to learn quietly 
and unsuspiciously all he and they had to offer in be- 
half of the system of Romanism — as this was my ob- 
ject, learning thus the mode of reasoning and seduc- 
tion practiced on English Protestants, I resumed the 
subject, and asked him whether he felt satisfied with 
merely assuming the existence of an infallible tribunal. 

He then said, We can prove its existence, or, rather, 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 79 

we may assume its existence without proof, in the 
same way as we assume the existence of God without 
proof. No man, he continued, can prove the existence 
of God. It is incapable of proof. Instead of proving 
it, we always assume it ; and in the same way we 
need not prove the existence of an infallible tribunal, 
but may assume it without proof. 

I replied, that we never assumed the existence of 
God except with those who admitted and believed it ; 
that I could not speak of the practice in the univers- 
ity and schools of theology of Rome, but that I could 
answer for the universities and schools of theology in 
England, where they would never assume the exist- 
ence of God unless with those who believed and ac- 
knowledged it. But with the infidels we argued from 
the things created to Him who created them. Every 
thing which we see or know has a beginning, and this 
is not a thing assumed, but a matter of every man's 
experience. Every created thing, of which we have 
any experimental knowledge, has or has had a begin- 
ning. It must be the result of some cause, and that 
the result of some previous cause, and that, again, the 
result of some still precedent cause ; but still, how- 
ever unseen, or distant, or untraceable the various 
links in the chain of cause and effect, there can be no 
result without a cause, and, consequently, a First 
Cause, and this First Cause we call God. Instead, 
therefore, of assuming the existence of the first cause, 
we prove it. If the existence of an infallible tribunal 
on earth be parallel to this, it should be proved as 
clearly. 

He at once acknowledged that the cases were not 



80 MORNINGS AMONG 

analogous, and he said that he could prove his posi- 
tion from the Scriptures. He observed me smiling at 
this, and he good-humoredly smiled in return, saying 
that he feared we could not arrive at any conclusion 
from them, as we should be sure to adopt different in- 
terpretations of each place, and that it was necessary 
we should commence with some point on which we 
were agreed, and so argue from it ; that the Scrip- 
tures were utterly useless for such a purpose, inas- 
much as we could not agree amid the variety of in- 
terpretations ; that they were always appealed to by 
all parties, and so could really decide nothing satis- 
factorily, and therefore he suggested that we were 
agreed on "the Apostles' Creed," and could argue 
from it. 

I said that as he would not argue from the Holy 
Scriptures on the ground of there being different in- 
terpretations or explanations of each place, I feared 
that there might be the same objection to the Apos- 
tles' Creed, as we were as likely to differ in our inter- 
pretation or explanation of it. But I added that J 
would be glad to hear him on the subject. 

He argued from the words, "I believe in the Holy 
Catholic Church," saying that the words implied thai 
the Catholic Church was one ; that there was a one- 
ness or unity in it ; that there were not many, but 
one ; that this oneness or unity required that it should 
have only one head, to give utterance to the senti- 
ments of the Church ; and that this one head must be 
the seat of infallibility, as otherwise the Church would 
become divided instead of united, and many instead of 
one. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. gj 

I could not but smile at this reasoning, and won- 
dered where the vis consequently was to be found. I 
said, however, in reply, that it was the belief of all 
Protestants that the Church was one in Christ ; that 
it had not many, but one head in Christ ; that it knew 
and imagined only one infallible expression of truth, 
namely, the Holy Scripture ; and then I asked him, 
When you say that the Church, being one, must have 
one mouth-piece to utter her sentiments, where is the 
vis consequents ? And when you say that there be- 
ing this one mouth-piece proves the existence of an in- 
fallible tribunal, where is the vis consequents? I 
appealed to him as one practiced in the system of the 
schools, practiced in the system of reasoning by syl- 
logism, whether such reasoning was admissible, and 
whether he could justly draw such an inference from 
my believing that Christ has a holy and universal 
Church — a " Holy Catholic Church." 

He exhibited on this, as indeed all through our pre- 
vious conversation, the same apparent candor as if he 
was conversing upon a topic on which he felt indif- 
ferent, and not at all as if he sought or contemplated 
my conversion to Romanism. He acknowledged that 
his argument from the words of the creed, "the Holy 
Catholic Church," was inconclusive and unsatisfac- 
tory, not calculated to convince ; I therefore asked 
him whether he thought he could prove his position 
by any other process. 

He replied by saying that he thought he should be 
able to prove that the existence of an infallible tribunal 
was not inconsistent with Scripture, or with history, 
or with tradition, or with reason, 

D2 



32 MORNINGS AMONG 

I said that could not satisfy me, as the existence of 
the tribunal must first be proved. Its existence must 
first be established, and then its consistency or incon- 
sistency with these may be in a way of being debated. 
I therefore again asked him to prove it. 

He then said that he did not at that moment recol- 
lect any further argument. 

I then reminded him that he had frankly admitted 
that he had failed in each of the arguments he had 
already adduced ; that he had withdrawn every one 
of them, so that we were still as we were at the be- 
ginning ; so I asked him for some new and additional 
argument. 

He said that he had advanced all he had recollect- 
ed ; that he had thought that these would have suf- 
ficed, but that he must admit that he had failed. 

I then asked, Am I to understand that you forsook 
your Protestant principles, and laid all your scruples, 
and objections, and difficulties — and you have told me 
they were many and great — at the feet of this infal- 
lible tribunal, when, as you now admit, you have had 
no conclusive and satisfactory argument to prove even 
the existence of such a tribunal ? Have you not taken 
a step of tremendous importance on very inadequate 
grounds — grounds that certainly do not justify a course 
of such overwhelming importance ? 

He replied thoughtfully as before. "I have always 
assumed it, I have always taken it for granted." 

I then again asked him whether it was possible he 
could not produce any stronger proof for the existence 
of this infallible authority in the Church of Rome, 
since it was the position on which he based all his 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 83 

^ ofessed belief, that it was the ground on which he 
asked me to change my Church and faith, and that 
it ought, therefore, to be established by clear, and co- 
gent, and irrefragable arguments. A man ought not 
to change his religion or Church on slight grounds. 
I said that I was indifferent to the common argu- 
ments on the subject, as they were in all controver- 
sial works, and might there be read by every one ; 
but that I should be glad, and that I was anxious, to 
hear what those arguments were which were still in- 
fluencing his own mind. He had professed a belief 
in this infallible authority; I asked him on what 
grounds he then believed in it. 

He answered at once, He had always been in the 
habit of assuming it. He had never questioned it, or 
thought of it in the way in which it had now been 
considered. A belief in it had been habitual with 
him. He had always taken it as proved, and he had 
never questioned it ; but, he added, thoughtfully, aft- 
er a pause, " I must consider the subject — I must re- 
consider it." 

The tone and manner in which this fell from him 
made me pause. The well-known character of all 
connected with the order of the Jesuits made me won- 
der at the want of talent, subtlety, and argument so 
apparent in the part he had taken in this conversa- 
tion. I had been prepared to see ah able, ingenious, 
and perhaps profound controversialist. I had antici- 
pated this from all I had ever read and heard of the 
Jesuits, and especially those who were selected to deal 
with the Anglican clergy, and I was conscious of feel- 
ing some degree of trepidation in the prospect of 



84 MORNINGS AMONG 

measuring lances with such opponents. But here 
was a man withdrawing his arguments, confessing 
their inadequacy and invalidity, and acknowledging 
that he had only habitually assumed the existence of 
infallibility in the Church of Rome ! I was very far 
from being prepared for this ; and, I must candidly 
confess it, I did not believe the sincerity of it. It 
had frequently occurred to me, that as he had once 
been a Protestant — as he seemed from some things 
that dropped from him, as to his private affairs and 
his past life, to feel himself under more control at 
Rome than he liked — he would readily avail himself 
of a good excuse of again changing his religion and 
Church, and would fly to England if encouragement 
and support were insured to him. This idea had 
several times occurred to my wife and myself, espe- 
cially to her, to whom he had spoken much as to his 
private history, so that I thought at some moments 
that he either could not consciously or would not will- 
ingly maintain his argument against me : I felt per- 
plexed. I sometimes thought that he might be a very 
honest, but misguided and untaught man, who had 
never fairly considered the matter, and was now for 
the first time opening his eyes ; and then, again, I 
feared it might be the ruse of some subtle and ac- 
complished Jesuit, endeavoring by this appearance of 
candor to throw me off my guard, and thus ascertain 
whether my real object was to consider these ques- 
tions, or to attempt to raise doubts in the minds of 
the priests at Rome. I felt that if I gave them rea- 
son to suppose that I was making any attempt at 
proselytizing, I should immediately be ordered by the 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 85 

police to leave Rome, and I therefore found it difficult 
to determine how to deal with him. I resolved at last 
to be silent. I felt that enough had been said to 
make an honest man reflect, and that, if he were only 
playing the Jesuit with me, my best course was the 
appearance of indifference, in order to foil his purpose. 
I therefore turned from the subject, and did not again 
revert to any thing theological for some time. 

After a conversation upon several topics connected 
with our friends at Rome, I resumed our subject. 

I said we had argued hitherto only as to the exist- 
ence of an infallible tribunal, and there was a further 
point on which I was anxious for information, and 
would be glad to know his opinion ; I alluded to the 
locality or residence of this infallibility. I said the 
point presented considerable difficulties to my mind. 
I did not know where to find it. If once I left the 
Holy Scriptures, I did not know where to go ; and 
even assuming that an infallible tribunal existed 
somewhere, I yet could not avail myself of it, for I 
knew not where to find it — in the fathers — in tradi- 
tion — in councils — in popes — in the Church diffused 
— I knew not where or to whom I should go. Now, 
assuming its existence somewhere, I asked his opin- 
ion as to whether it could be found in the writings of 
the fathers. 

His answer was, Certainly not. 

I said that in this I agreed with him ; that I had 
read a good deal of their writings ; that some of them 
were undoubtedly master-minds ; that there were 
some beautiful things in them, but that there were 
also many things of a very different character — in- 



86 MOENINGS AMONG 

deed, highly objectionable ; some things wrong, some 
things puerile, some things in one father opposed to 
other fathers, and even some parts of the same father 
opposed to other portions of his own writings, so that, 
on the whole, they seemed to me a very mistaken 
and uncertain authority, on which no thinking man 
could depend. 

He answered by stating his entire concurrence in 
this sentiment, saying frankly that he had not read 
much of the fathers, but that, from what he had read, 
with the exception of St. Augustine, there seemed to 
him much of weakness, much of puerilities, much of 
positive error, though, at the same time, mixed with 
much talent, piety, and learning, but certainly un- 
worthy of the position in which some theologians 
seemed disposed to place them ; and, whatever good 
was in their writings, they were wholly unfit for the 
uses to which some would apply them, as authorita- 
tive interpreters of Scripture, or, indeed, as authori- 
tative on any question of theology. 

I expressed myself as glad that we were so far 
agreed, and could thus lay aside the fathers, adding 
that they themselves justified and recommended our 
doing so by the manner in which they treated one 
another, confuting and opposing one another. 

He added that St. Augustine had said that he 
would not believe any thing merely on the ground 
that it had been taught by any number of fathers ; 
that, as such, the fathers had no authority with St 
Augustine ; " and why," he asked, " why should 
they have authority with us ?" 

I perceived that we were agreed thus far, and I 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. g^ 

therefore added that the fathers not only rejected each 
other's authority, but also the authority of councils 
and churches, and demanded submission to the Holy 
Scriptures, pointing to them, as is usual among Prot- 
estants, as to the only seat of infallible truth. 

He quickly contradicted me in this, and said that 
the fathers did not reject the decisions of councils or 
churches. 

I was prepared for this, and replied by saying, 1 
would let St. Augustine speak for himself ; and open- 
ing a volume which I had purposely with me, read the 
following passage from that father : " I ought not to 
adduce the Council of Nice, nor ought you to adduce 
the council of Ariminum, for I am not bound by the 
authority of one, nor are you bound by the authority 
of the other. Let the question be determined by the 
authority of the Scriptures, which are witnesses pe- 
culiar to neither of us, but common to both." (Con. 
Max., 3, c. 14.) I said this was a very clear rejec- 
tion of the authority of councils, the more remarkable 
as the Council of Nice was one of them. 

He remarked that he had not recollected the passage. 

I then called his attention to another, where St. 
Augustine says, " We do not say that you ought to 
believe us, that we are in the Church, because Opta- 
tus or Ambrose have praised the Church which we 
hold, nor because other innumerable bishops of our 
communion have done the same, nor because our 
Church has been proclaimed by councils of our col- 
leagues, nor because wonderful miracles of hearing 
and healing have been wrought in those places where 
our communion is frequented ;" and a little afterward 



88 MORNINGS AMONG 

he adds, " Laying aside all such arguments, let them 
prove their Church if they can, not in the discourses 
or reports of the Africans, nor in the councils of their 
bishops, nor in the writings of any controversialist 
whatever, nor by miracles and wonders, which are lia- 
ble to deceit, and against which we have been fore- 
warned and cautioned by the words of our Lord, but 
let them prove it in the law, in the predictions of the 
prophets, in the songs of the Psalmist, in the words 
of the Shepherd himself, in the preaching and labors 
of the evangelists, that is, in all the canonical author- 
ities of the sacred volume." I added, that in these 
passages from St. Augustine's treatise De Unitate (c. 
16), he seems to reject the authority of fathers, coun- 
cils, and churches, and appeals only to the Holy Scrip- 
tures ; and " why," I asked, " why should not we fol- 
low his example, and examine our different doctrines 
by the Holy Scriptures, which we acknowledge to be 
infallible, instead of appealing to any thing else ?" 

He replied that he could not go with me in appeal- 
ing to the Scriptures, as the variety of interpretation 
to which they were liable would be an insuperable dif- 
ficulty ; and that, while he had not distinctly recol- 
lected those passages in St. Augustine, yet he had a 
perfect recollection of that father's expressing himself 
very differently elsewhere ; that he recollected a pas- 
sage in which St. Augustine expresses himself as will- 
ing to submit to any thing the bishops required, or 
which their predecessors enjoined, or the councils de- 
sired, or the Church demanded ; that it belonged to 
them to possess and exercise authority, and that it was 
our province to submit and obey ; that, whether the 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. $9 

things were in Scripture or not, if only the bishop or 
the Church desired it, it was for us to submit and 
obey. Such was the opinion of St. Augustine, found- 
ing the practice of infant baptism on the simple ground 
of its being ordered, not by Scripture, but by the 
Church, and stating that any resistance to the au- 
thority of the bishop or the Church was an act of re- 
bellion. He added that, though he did not recollect 
at the moment where those opinions of St. Augustine 
were, he yet had a perfect recollection of having read 
them in his writings. 

I said that I quite believed such sentiments were 
to be found in the writings of that father, and that I 
could myself fully enter into them; that they seemed 
to me to relate to the ordinary canons, ceremonies, &c, 
referring to the right conduct of Church matters, which 
are not touched in Holy Scriptures, and which must 
be left to the authority of the Church and its officials 
to arrange. But I added, " If you refer this language 
to matters of doctrine and faith, I can not go with you, 
and the conclusion at which we must arrive is this, 
namely, that as there are different passages in the 
writings of St. Augustine expressing different and op- 
posite opinions — as not only one father can be cited 
against another father, but as, in this instance, a father 
can be cited against himself — the most reasonable 
course would be to lay them altogether aside, and cer- 
tainly not to appeal to them as an infallible tribunal." 

To this he assented, and even went further, saying 
that they never were fitted for being an authority in 
controversies ; that they frequently contradicted and 
controverted each other ; that they often retracted and 



t)0 MORNINGS AMONG 

confuted themselves and their own writings ; that 
many of them held positive error ; that, though some 
were saints, there were others who were not saints ; 
and that the writings of the fathers had been made too 
much of by some theologians, being often too erroneous, 
too fanciful, and too puerile to secure the respect which 
was frequently paid to them. For himself, he added 
that he certainly could not be influenced by them. 

I then asked where, as I must not look to the fa- 
thers, he would direct me in searching for an infallible 
authority. Whether he would refer me to tradition? 

He replied promptly and earnestly, " Most certainly 
not. Tradition is not a safe or infallible guide." 

I expressed myself pleased at finding we were thus 
far agreed, for that, though I had a profound respect 
for tradition in all that was within its proper and pe- 
culiar province, I yet could not ascribe to it a shadow 
of authority in matters necessary to salvation. 

He said that he quite assented to this, and agreed 
with me thus far as to all that was purely tradition- 
ary ; for although the words which the apostles preach- 
ed were quite as authoritative and inspired, and there- 
fore infallible, as the words which the apostles wrote, 
yet there was not the same certainty about them. We 
were not so sure of their identity. Words spoken were 
too fugitive. The littera scripta was preferable. 

I said that he had just expressed the feeling I al- 
ways entertained on the subject of tradition ; for, ad- 
mitting that the apostles' preached word was quite as 
authoritative as the apostles' written word, yet we were 
not so sure that we possess the former — we are not 
sure that many things are not palmed on them which 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. gj 

they never uttered ; that many errors are not fathered 
on them which were never begotten by them ; that 
that which was purely traditionary was universally 
regarded by all acquainted with historical research as 
essentially uncertain ; that, consequently, I was unable 
to hold any thing as necessary to be believed in order 
to salvation which was derived only through ecclesi- 
astical tradition ; and that, even if more credible than 
it is, it still would remain too vague and uncertain for 
any inquiring or thinking person to refer to it, or de- 
pend on it as an infallible tribunal. 

He stated broadly and strongly that he felt very 
much with me, and that tradition, notwithstanding all 
that was said of it, could never govern his mind. He 
felt it was altogether too vague — too uncertain — so 
diverse at different ages and in different countries, that 
he could not understand why it had been made so much 
of in these controversies. He spoke freely of our di- 
vines at Oxford — those whose tendencies were toward 
the Church of Rome, as exhibited in the " Tracts for 
the Times," in the "Ideal of a Church," in the "Ser- 
mon on Tradition," &c, and thought they had made 
a great mistake in making so much of tradition as 
they affected to do ; that it really had not helped them, 
except among those ignorant of what tradition really 
was ; that it had rather raised in many minds sus- 
picions and prejudices against them and their object; 
that he deeply regretted and deplored that men who 
might have turned the whole Church of England, and 
brought all the people of England nearer to the Church 
of Rome, and even into her arms, had lost so noble an 
opportunity by exposing their good cause, by making 



92 MORNINGS AMONG 

so much of tradition ; that many of them, in their zeal 
without knowledge, had acted with the utmost impru- 
dence in their mode of treating the subject; that they 
ought to have known that tradition could never be es- 
tablished ; that it could easily be shaken ; that it was 
variable, and uncertain, and debatable in itself; that, 
with calm minds, it could never decide other ques- 
tions. He dwelt long on this point, and concluded by 
saying that he fully agreed with me that there was 
no infallibility in tradition, although the whole history 
of the Church, he added, gave evidence that an infal- 
libility existed. 

I felt that we had now arrived at an important point 
in this our conference, and my heart was full of thank- 
fulness that the Spirit of all truth had thus far pros- 
pered me, and given what I thought some measure of 
success. It was clear that an appeal to the writings 
of the fathers and to tradition was abandoned, and by 
mutual consent rejected. I felt myself, in this, disen- 
cumbered of much trouble, which I had feared would 
have been in my way if he had required of me to enter 
on that large branch of controversy which he thus read- 
ily abandoned as untenable ; and I was, at the same 
time, fearful of being led to express myself in any 
terms that might awaken his suspicions or alarm him. 
I feared to say or do any thing that might awaken in 
his mind a suspicion that I was desiring to create 
doubts in his mind, and to attempt to proselytize him, 
or even to lead him to think that I was not merely 
seeking for information, and to clear my own views, 
and to learn some answer to my objections, and to 
have my difficulties removed, but that I was also play- 



THE JESUITS AT HOME. 93 

ing and tampering with him. I much feared creat- 
ing such an impression as would lead him to think I 
was incorrigible as a Protestant, and altogether beyond 
his hopes of conversion, which would have led to his 
withdrawal from all further intercourse with me. I 
was therefore very thankful Ub find myself freed from 
all strife or difference about the fathers and tradition, 
and thus disencumbered of a great source of uneasi- 
ness. He evidently felt that he could not safely rely 
on any argument derived from either of these sources, 
and thus easily abandoned them. 

I soon again took the opportunity of reminding him 
that, at the beginning of our conversation, he had 
urged me to lay aside all my objections, and difficul- 
ties, and doubts as to transubstantiation, the sacrifice 
of the mass, the worship of Mary, and other points, 
and at once to enter the Church of Rome, laying all 
these doubts, &c, at the foot of infallibility, which had 
already resolved and settled them. I said that I should 
now ask him to show me this infallible tribunal ; to 
tell me where it exists — where I may 'find it, and 
avail myself of it. There may be, I said to him, a 
physician able to heal my sickness of the body, but if 
I know not where to find him, his skill will remain 
useless to me, and my sickness remains unhealed; and, 
in the same way, supposing that this infallible tri- 
bunal exists somewhere for the solution of my doubts, 
it will remain utterly useless unless I know where to 
find it, in order to avail myself of it and cast my dif- 
ficulties at its feet. Where is it ? 

He answered that it was in the Church, speaking 
by its infallible head — -the pope. 



94 MORNINGS AMONG 

I said that I had always heard that it was some- 
where in the Church, but that men differed in the 
Church of Rome as to the precise somewhere. One 
class of her theologians holds that infallibility resides 
in the popes ; a second class maintains that it resides 
in a council ; and a thilrd class asserts that it is not 
in either of these separately or in both conjointly, but 
that it resides diffused through the Church generally. 
I added that these several classes of theologians al- 
ways seemed to me to argue very ably in proving 
that their adversaries are wrong, but to reason very 
weakly and defectively when endeavoring to establish 
their own views ; and I therefore expressed a wish to 
learn to which of these systems his judgment inclined. 

He answered my inquiry by saying that the French 
divines held that infallibility resides in general coun- 
cils, and not in the popes ; that the Italian divines 
hold that it resides in the popes, and not in councils ; 
and that the ancient Catholics of England used to 
side with the Italians in favor of the popes, but that 
the modern Catholics of that island have passed over 
to the opinions of the French in favor of councils. He 
added, for himself, that he held it was in the popes. 

I said, in reference to his own views, that I rather 
coincided with him, not, indeed, in thinking that in- 
fallibility existed any where but in the Holy Scrip- 
tures, which were inspired of God, and therefore in- 
fallible, but that, if it could exist any ^here else — 
in any of the three seats or parties to which we had 
referred, the preponderance of argument seemed to me 
to be decidedly in favor of the papacy. Most of their 
arguments, I said, seemed to me to be derived from 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 95 

something connected with St. Peter — derived from 
some word spoken to him, or some promise made to 
him, or some supremacy supposed to be in him ; and, 
therefore, they all seemed to me to point to some- 
thing in the popes as succeeding him, rather than to 
any thing in councils. 

He expressed himself as much pleased and gratified 
at finding I agreed with him on that point, as it was 
one on which his order — that of the Jesuits — held 
very decided opinions. 

I then said, that though my impression was that 
in the question of councils, bishops, and popes, the ar- 
guments rather inclined in favor of the claim of the 
popes, yet, supposing that point settled, and all diffi- 
culty thereon removed from my mind, there was a 
further difficulty immediately called into existence, 
namely, how it was to be ascertained when the pope 
delivered himself infallibly. It was admitted, I said, 
by all parties, that some popes had erred — that some 
were heretical — and that, with orthodox popes, they 
sometimes spoke fallibly and sometimes infallibly 
There are many papal bulls, delivered ex cathedrti of 
course, which were directly opposite and contradictory 
to other papal bulls, also delivered ex cathedra ; and, 
under these admitted circumstances, the difficulty 
pressing on my mind would be the means or test by 
which I could distinguish between the fallible bulls 
and the infallible bulls. 

He replied that that was a very difficult part of 
our inquiries, and that he thought it would be advis- 
able for me to have a conference or meeting with the 
professor of canon law ; that he was one of the order 



96 



MORNINGS AMONG 



of the Jesuits ; that he was, from the nature of his 
professorship, peculiarly competent to give me inform- 
ation on that precise point ; that he was very learned 
and talented, and had paid great attention to that de- 
partment of ecclesiastical matters ; and, finally, that 
in a few days he should arrange for a conversation on 
the subject, informing the reverend professor of my 
difficulties, that he might be prepared beforehand to 
give all information and satisfaction to my inquiries. 
Soon after this, with friendly and mutual expres- 
sions of a hope that we might again soon meet to 
speak for our mutual edification on these deeply in- 
teresting matters, we parted. 



CHAPTER IV. 



The Death of a Convert — Administration of Five Sacraments — Prayer 
through Mary heard sooner than through Christ — Argument from Ex- 
perience — The Madonna of the Augustinians — The Means by whicli 
Saints hear Prayers — God a Mediator to the Saints — Opinions of St. 
Chrysostom — The Influence of the Worship of Mary — Mary more 
Compassionate than Christ. 

It was not many days after the preceding inter- 
view that another priest of the Church of Rome called 
on us. He was a man of considerable attainments, 
and singularly accomplished in some particulars. He 
held a position of great influence in the Church, and 
his learning and character added yet more, if possi- 
ble, to the influence derived from his station. He 
came with the frank avowal of his object, namely, to 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



97 



attempt oiir conversion to the Church of Rome. He 
felt, I believe, a very sincere regard for us, and would 
have made any sacrifice to accomplish what appeared 
to him so desirable a result. But, at the same time, 
I felt that great caution was required on my part; 
that a word from him could send me at a moment's 
notice from Rome ; and that wisdom and prudence 
demanded that I should rather endeavor to draw out 
his opinions— to get at his method of reasoning with 
Protestants — to learn all he had to offer — that I 
should rather endeavor to do this than to declare my 
own opinions, and so, by openly opposing him, expose 
myself to the danger of being sent from Rome. I 
believed him to be really our friend, but I feared lest 
I should make him as really our enemy. 

We soon fell into conversation on the subject. 

It commenced by his asking me how he had been 
occupied during the amusements of the carnival — 
how I supposed fie had been engaged, adding that he 
had taken no part in the ordinary amusements of the 
season. 

To this inquiry I had no reply to offer, and there- 
fore' merely said that it was to be presumed he was 
occupied with something more suited to his sacred 
office. 

He immediately rejoined with much complacency, 
accompanied by some pride and joy — that sort of feel- 
ing very general among them when they have per- 
formed what is called " a good work" — that he had 
been engaged in receiving a Protestant into the bosom 
of the Church of Rome. 

I was very far from feeling any complacency at 

E 



(jg MORNINGS AMONG 

this announcement, and I was anxious to learn which 
of my countrymen was the unhappy victim. I could 
not understand how any one seeing the realities of 
Romanism at Rome could ever be persuaded to join 
the system ; so, resolving to watch my opportunity, 
and seeing he had some object in introducing the sub- 
ject, I left him to himself, merely remarking that I 
thought he had been very naturally occupied. 

He then told the circumstances with much simplic- 
ity, that the man was dying; that he had no rela- 
tives near him ; that one of his companions had talked 
much to him about sending for a priest ; that he had 
never avowed any thing on the subject of religion or 
of a priest ; that, as he was near death, my friend, as 
a priest, was at the bedside of the man ; that he found 
him so far gone as to be speechless ; that he therefore 
stated to him that he would kneel down and offer a 
prayer for him. His words were, " He was speech- 
less ; so I said I would kneel down and say one of 
my prayers for him. I then immediately knelt down, 
and said the < Hail, Mary,' the < Ave Maria.' " 

I was perfectly astonished, and could not repress 
the expression of my intense astonishment that at 
such a moment, when an immortal soul was passing 
into eternity — when all the awful accompaniments of 
death were around him, he could think of offering such 
a sentence, for prayer it was not, as the " Hail, Mary !" 
I repeated the words of the "Ave Maria" and asked 
how it was possible that he had no word to offer— no 
counsel to give — no message of forgiveness to an- 
nounce — no gospel of salvation to preach ? How it 
was possible that, instead of praying to Christ for for- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 99 

giveness, praying to the Spirit for grace, praying to 
God for salvation, he could only have offered these 
words of worship to the Virgin Mary ? I was deep- 
ly moved at what appeared to me a frightful neglect 
of the eternal interest of the dying man, and did not 
hesitate to express myself strongly as to the fearful 
responsibility he had incurred. 

He seemed not to have heard me, as if he was ab- 
sorbed in his own thoughts, so that my words were 
lost on him ; and he said, with eagerness, that he had 
observed, as he knelt and said the " Hail, Mary !" that 
the dying man moved his lips, as if secretly repeating 
the words after him ; for, being speechless, he could 
not repeat the words openly ; and that he said to the 
dying man, " And can you repeat that prayer after 
me ?" for, he said, addressing himself to me, " there is 
nothing against which the feelings and prejudices of 
Protestants are more strong and enduring than against 
praying to the Holy Virgin ; so," he added, " I felt 
that when the dying man could join me in that pray- 
er to the Holy Virgin, he must have been very far 
gone toward us." 

" Very far gone indeed," I replied. 

" Yes," he continued, " he seemed to repeat the 
prayer after me ; and feeling he must have gone very 
far toward us, I asked him further whether he could 
not join our Church in all the rest. He showed by 
his manner that he could, and that he wished to be 
received into our Church ; so I heard his confession, 
and gave him absolution." 

At this I was on the point of asking my priestly 
friend, whose tone and manner was exultation in its 



1Q0 MORNINGS AMONG 

highest degree, how he could hear the confession of a 
man who was speechless, and how a speechless man 
could utter his confession ; but I checked myself on 
recollecting that, according to their canons, he was 
justified in exhorting the man to make confession, and 
then in assuming a confession to have been made in 
such cases where the person is too far gone to be able 
to speak ; so I was silent. 

He proceeded to say, that, after having thus con- 
fessed and absolved the dying man, there arose a doubt 
as to whether the man had ever been baptized ; and, 
though baptism must never be repeated, yet as Prot- 
estants were very careless in administering baptism, 
it was felt safe to give conditional baptism to such 
converts. It was so customary, he said, among the 
Protestant Churches to baptize without properly pour- 
ing the water on the child, that there was no certain- 
ty that there was a real baptism ; and though they 
could not think of repeating baptism, yet they always 
gave conditional baptism in such cases to converts. 
" And in this way," he added, " I baptized the man 
conditionally, and then I had him immediately con- 
firmed, and he received the communion, and then the 
extreme unction, and thus he received almost at once 
no less than five sacraments !" 

He spoke this in a tone of exultation and triumph, 
as if some great and good achievement had been ac- 
complished. I must confess that I was amused, not- 
withstanding the sadness of his statement and the so- 
lemnity of the subject. It seemed so strange a pro- 
ceeding for a man — a minister of Christ, at the bed 
of a dying man, merely to offer as a prayer the " Hail, 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



101 



Mary ;" it seemed so simply said that when a Prot- 
estant prays to the Virgin Mary he must be very far 
gone ; it seemed so necessary to apologize for rebap- 
tizing a Protestant ; it seemed so absurd to speak of 
a speechless man making a confession of his sins so 
as to receive absolution ; and, above all, it seemed so 
inconsistent with all our views of true religion to re 
gard it as necessary, and even to make a boast of it, 
that this speechless man had in so short a time re- 
ceived the five sacraments, penance, baptism, con- 
firmation, communion, extreme unction ! 

And then, to crown all, he told me, in reply to my 
inquiry as to what Protestant Church the man had 
belonged, that he was a Swiss— one of the soldiers of 
the pope's troops ! I felt that a poor Swiss mount- 
aineer, sent to Rome in his youth as a soldier for the 
pope's guards, living all his life at Rome, and at last 
dying speechless in a foreign land, and with a foreign 
tongue — I felt that the scene was scarcely one for my 
friend to boast of. It was one to awaken sadness of 
heart and gentleness of feeling. The narrative, how- 
ever, was one that gave me the opportunity of intro- 
ducing an inquiry on a subject on which I was anx- 
ious to have some information. 

I asked why, on so solemn an occasion as a death- 
bed, when an immortal soul was about passing into 
the presence of God, why did you pray to the Virgin 
Mary instead of praying to Jesus Christ ? In com- 
mon with all Protestants, I would have prayed to Je- 
sus Christ, or to God through Jesus Christ. 

He answered that it was their opinion — the opin- 
ion, too, of many of the fathers — that God hears our 



102 MORNINGS AMONG 

prayers more quickly when they are offered through 
the blessed Virgin than when offered through any 
one else. 

I had anticipated this answer, owing to some 
things previously communicated to me from another 
person ; and in order to draw him out to an explana- 
tion of this doctrine, I merely said that I could not see 
how it was possible for him to justify such an opinion. 

He replied that there was warrant in Scripture to 
justify it, for there was in the book of Revelations a 
vision in which the elders are described as offering 
odors, which are said to be the prayers of the saints, so 
that it was clear that the saints offered prayers for us. 

I reminded him that " saints" was always the 
Scripture name of Christians — not dead, but living 
Christians ; and that " elders," that is, " presbyters," 
describe the ministry of the Church ; and, therefore, 
that the vision of the elders offering the prayers of 
saints represented the ministry of the Church offering 
the prayers of the living Christians. In all this there 
was nothing to justify his praying to Mary. The vi- 
sion described the elders offering the prayers of saints 
on earth, and did not justify our praying to saints in 
heaven. And, after all, I asked how such a vision 
could justify his saying the " Hail, Mary," at the 
bed of the dying man, and also justify his statement 
that God hears the prayer offered through the Virgin 
Mary more quickly than that offered to Christ. 

He remained silent. 

I therefore asked how he supposed those persons 
whom he regarded as saints in heaven heard the pray- 
ers of men on earth, and how he could justify the 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. \Q% 

practice of praying to them for this intercession, as- 
sistance, or any thing else ? 

He said that it was not a practice or duty obliga- 
tory on them ; that it was not enjoined or command- 
ed by the Church ; that it was only recommended as 
good and wholesome — at least it was so recommend- 
ed by the Council of Trent ; and, therefore, it was 
not necessary to communion with them. 

I replied that that was true in theory, but not in 
practice ; for by making these prayers to saints part 
and parcel of the public Liturgy of the Church, so 
that no man could join in her services without join- 
ing in these prayers to the saints, she practically com- 
pelled the thing. But, I added, since the Council of 
Trent declared the practice to be good and wholesome, 
it would be well that some reasons or proofs could be 
adduced to justify the statement. 

He answered, promptly, that the argument from 
experience was decisive. He paused for a moment 
as if recollecting himself, and then went on to say 
that it was the experience of good Catholics, that when 
they prayed to the blessed Virgin their prayers were 
answered. Many and many a time, he said, when a 
godly mother prayed for her ungodly son, who was 
wandering in the way of sin and shame — praying 
that he might be brought back to repentance and ho- 
liness — when a mother thus prayed to the blessed 
Virgin for her son, she finds that, sooner or later, her 
prayer is answered — that her son is brought back re- 
pentant and holy ; and connecting this with the bless- 
ed Virgin, who was herself a mother and able to 
sympathize with a mother, she recognizes it as the 



104 MOENINGS AMONG 

answer of the Virgin to her prayers, and is therefore 
encouraged to pray to her again. He continued to 
say it was the same way in praying to other saints. 
When praying to them for any particular object — 
for recovery from sickness, for deliverance from any 
trouble, for the conversion of a beloved child, or, in- 
deed, for any object of prayer generally — when pray- 
ing thus to a saint for these, it is often found by ex- 
perience that the prayer is fulfilled and the object 
granted, and this experience induces them to pray 
again and again to the saints. 

I had never heard this argument before, at least in 
this form ; so, to prevent all mistake, I asked partic- 
ularly whether his argument was not one simply de- 
rived from experience — experience of answer to such 
prayers. He at once answered in the affirmative, 
adding that experience proved to be their best encour- 
agement ; and when I remarked that there was no 
point more liable to be mistaken than the supposed 
connection between prayers and events, and that, as 
it was God who alone could dispose and order events, 
so it was to him alone our prayers should be offered, 
he did not seem to heed or to hear me, but went on 
with his own argument. 

He said that many persons had been converted 
through this method of prayer — through prayer to the 
blessed Virgin and the saints ; and thus experience of 
the truth asserted by the Council of Trent, that it was 
good and wholesome, proved a great encouragement as 
well as strong argument for it ; and the more so, as 
the feeling of devotion to the Virgin has a mysterious 
something in it that will ever linger about the heart 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 105 

of the man who has ever felt it. It is one of those 
feelings that, once admitted, can never afterward be 
totally obliterated. There it still clings around the 
heart ; and though there may be coldness to all other 
religious impressions ; though there may be infidelity 
or even scorn upon all our faith ; though there may 
be the plunging into the wild vortex of every sin, yet 
still there will not unfrequently be found, even among 
the very worst of our people, a lingering feeling of de- 
votion to the blessed Virgin. It is as a little thread 
that still keeps hold of the soul, and it will yet draw 
him back. All else may be broken, but this thread, 
by which the blessed Virgin holds him, still clings to 
his soul. Even in the most wild, wicked, and despe- 
rate men — even among the bandits in their worst state, 
there is always retained this devotion to Mary ; and 
when we can not get at their hearts in any other way 
— when every other argument, or truth, or principle, 
or feeling of religion fails to make any impression, we 
frequently find access opened to their hearts by this 
one feeling still lingering about them ; and thus we 
find by experience that a devotion to the blessed Vir- 
gin proves often the means by which we are able to 
lay hold of their hearts, and win them back to our 
holy religion. 

I said that I had frequently heard of this devotion 
to the Virgin as characteristic of ^ome of the very 
worst persons in Italy ; that, after renouncing God, 
the Father, Son, and Spirit — after surrendering every 
element of Christianity and devotion to Christ, they 
still sometimes retain this devotion to the Virgin 
Mary. I said that, to my poor judgment, such a state 

E 2 



106 MORNINGS AMONG 

of things, instead of being an argument in favor of 
this devotion to Mary, was really its greatest con- 
demnation. It was as if a life of sin, and vice, and 
murder was felt to be inconsistent with a devotion to 
Christ, but, at the same time, perfectly compatible 
with a devotion to Mary. It was as if they felt they 
could not retain both Christ and sin, but that they 
could retain both Mary and sin. This, at least, was 
the apparent reasoning of such persons, and certainly 
it was the plain matter of fact, as implied by what 
had just been stated to be the experience of the Church. 
At all events, I added, it seems to imply that the Vir- 
gin Mary is more accessible, more lenient, more lov- 
ing to the poor sinner than Jesus Christ. 

He repeated what he had said before on this point 
expressive of the greater leniency, the gentler com- 
passion, and the closer sympathies of Mary ; adding, 
that he was borne out in such an opinion by that of 
the fathers, of whom many were of opinion that even 
Christ himself was not so willing to hear our prayers, 
and did not hear them so quickly when offered sim- 
ply to himself as when they were offered through the 
blessed Virgin. 

I felt this was a hideous sentiment, and could not 
forbear to say so ; adding, that when such opinions 
were circulated by the priesthood, I could no longer 
feel surprised at ^he extent — the extravagance to 
which the devotion to Mary had gone in Rome ; that 
I felt the whole devotional system of the Church of 
Rome, the prayers unceasingly offered to the Virgin, 
the innumerable pictures of the Virgin, the countless 
images of the Virgin, the many churches dedicated to 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 107 

the Virgin, the universal devotion rendered to the Vir- 
gin, the manner in which all the services and prayers 
of the Church and people are impregnated with 
thoughts of the Virgin — the extent to which, in con- 
versation, all classes went in speaking of the Virgin, 
all had impressed me with the feeling that the religion 
of Italy ought to be called the religion of the Virgin 
Mart/, and not the religion of Jesus Christ. I added 
that it was impossible to justify such a state of things. 
" If," said I, " I enter the Church of the Augustines, 
I see there an image of the Virgin Mary as large as 
life. Some are decorating her with jewels as votive 
offerings ; some are suspending pictures around her as 
memorials of thankfulness ; some are placing money 
in a box at her feet ; some are prostrate in profound 
devotion before her ; some are devoutly kissing her 
feet and touching them with their foreheads ; some 
are repeating the rosary before her, as if acceptable to 
her ; all turning their backs upon the consecrated 
Host — turning their backs upon that which the priest 
is elevating at the high altar, and which he and they 
believe to be Jesus Christ himself bodily and visibly 
among them ; turning their backs upon Christ, and 
turning their faces to Mary, practically forsaking * 
Christ for Mary, with a prostration the most profound 
before her image — a prostration that was never sur- 
passed in the days of heathen Rome, and can never 
be justified in Christian Rome." 

He said, in answer to all this, that for his own part 
he would not act thus, and that it was not right to 
judge of the Church by the devotion of the igno- 
rant. 



108 MORNINGS AMONG 

My wife then interposed, and said she had wit- 
nessed all this, and was shocked at what seemed to 
her to be a most fearful idolatry ; for while the priest 
was saying mass and elevating the Host at one end of 
the church, and some of the people bowing before it, 
the image of Mary stood at the other end, and some 
of the people were in precisely the same way bowing 
before it. Some preferred what they believed to be 
Christ ; some preferred what they regarded as an im- 
age of the Virgin. 

He replied, with much gentleness, that he never 
prayed to the Virgin of the Augustines ; that it was 
not a sightly image ; that it was really an ugly im- 
age, and had never excited his devotion, and, in fact, 
he had never prayed before it ; but still, he thought 
it scarcely fair to speak against this devotion to Mary 
as exhibited by the more ignorant, inasmuch as they 
had learned its value by experience. Many of those 
whom we had witnessed there had no doubt offered 
many a prayer to her and had found an answer. 
Many a mother praying for her child had obtained her 
petition. They were poor people, subject to priva- 
tions, afflictions, sicknesses, and they found relief and 
•consolation in going to the blessed Virgin. 

He said all this in a manner embarrassed and hes- 
itating, as if feeling he must say something, but as 
having no confidence in his own words ; and when, 
observing this, I reminded him that these poor people 
ought to have been directed to Him who is " the Fa- 
ther of mercies and the God of all consolation," he 
seemed to feel the truth of it, but was silent. 

After a few words showing the true source of re- 



THE JESUITS AT KOME. JQ9 

lief and consolation in all our distresses and afflictions, 
I went on to say that there could be no answer from 
the Virgin Mary, inasmuch as she could not hear the 
prayers that were offered to her. I asked, How does 
the Virgin Mary hear the prayers of men ? How do 
the saints hear our prayers ? 

He looked at me as if he had never thought of the 
point before — as if the inquiry had never occurred to 
him before. He said nothing. 

I therefore proceeded to state clearly the point in- 
volved in my question. I said, that, as the Godhead, 
from its very nature, was omnipresent and omnis- 
cient, it was easy to understand God's hearing our 
prayers, and knowing our devotion of heart. He 
could know our feelings, our wishes, our wants, our 
sincerity, our prayers. But the Virgin Mary was 
not omnipresent or omniscient. The other saints 
were not omnipresent or omniscient ; and as neither 
she nor they could read the secret depths of the hu- 
man heart, so it was not easy to understand how they 
could hear or know the prayers that were offered to 
them. It should be recollected that one man prays 
to the Virgin Mary in London, a second prays to her 
in China, a third in America, &c. It seems hard to 
conceive how she can hear and know the prayers of- 
fered thus by different persons in London, in China, 
in America, &c. It seems difficult to understand 
how she or any saint in heaven can know the wishes, 
the thoughts, the devotion, the prayers of the millions 
who are praying to them in so many different parts 
of the world at the same time. If she or they were 
omnipresent — if omniscient as the Godhead, all would 



1 1 o MORNINGS AMONG 

be easy to conceive, all would be intelligible ; but as 
they are no more than finite creatures in heaven, this 
can not be. I asked, therefore, How can Mary — ■ 
how can any saint in heaven, hear the multitude of 
prayers from the multitude of hearts on earth ? 

He said, in reply, that they were spirits ; that they 
were not like us on earth, but spiritual beings in 
heaven. He spoke as if the difficulty had never oc- 
curred to his mind in its strength before ; as if he 
really thought that, from their being not corporeal, 
but spiritual, every thing was easy. 

I reminded him that their being spirits, embodied 
or disembodied, did not affect the question. They 
were finite spirits, and therefore could not pervade 
the infinite. " They were not omnipresent. They 
were not omniscient. They were only spirits, and 
not God, who alone knoweth the heart, and therefore 
who alone knoweth prayer. 

I have seldom seen a man habituated to controver- 
sy more perplexed than my friend appeared at this 
question touching the means by which Mary or the 
saints could hear and know our prayers. For a mo- 
ment he seemed disposed to think it might be some 
privilege in the possession of such spirits ; but, after 
some hesitation and acknowledgment of the difficul- 
ties the question raised, he threw out, in the way of 
suggestion, that it might perhaps be that God reveals 
it to them — that, being in God's presence, they learn 
it from Him. 

I remarked that this was no more than a sugges- 
tion—a mere perhaps — a supposed possibility. It 
was not a settled fact on which a system could be 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. m 

based, and therefore it was wholly inadequate to jus- 
tify so grave a practice. 

He said at once that he did not just at that mo- 
ment recollect any other way in which our prayers or 
hearts could be known to the blessed Virgin or the 
blessed saints. 

I therefore said that his suggestion, though as good 
as any other of which I had read or heard, defeated 
the whole object of the practice. The practice of in- 
voking Mary and the other saints was taught on the 
principle that men ought not to approach God direct- 
ly or immediately, but indirectly through these as his 
favorites, even as we would approach an earthly sov- 
ereign through his courtiers. 

He at once assented to this. 

I therefore added, that if the prayers and aspira- 
tions of votaries are not heard or known to the saints 
until God reveals them to them — until they learn 
them through Him, then the prayers and aspirations 
must first go to God, and afterward to the saints ; 
must, in short, go directly and immediately to God, 
and indirectly and mediately to the saints. This ut- 
terly subverts the whole system, which is based upon 
the opposite idea. It supposes that the prayer first 
reaches God ; that He reveals it to the saint ; that 
the saint then prays it back again to God, presenting 
to Him the petition of the votary ; and thus, accord- 
ing to this system, God is our mediator to the saints, 
and not the saints our mediators to God. 

He said that they did not regard the saints as me- 
diators of redemption, but only as mediators of inter- 
cession, who were to intercede with God for us. 



112 MORNINGS AMONG 

I replied that I was fully aware of the distinction, 
but that it rather strengthened my argument ; for as 
their province was to present our prayers to God, and 
to intercede with God to hear and grant our prayers, 
so it was especially essential to them as intercessors 
that they should hear our prayers and know our 
hearts. " You," I added, " make the Virgin Mary 
and the saints mediators of prayer. It is necessary, 
therefore, that they be able to hear our prayers ; and 
the only explanation you give is a suggestion that 
makes God our mediator of prayer to the saints, in- 
stead of the saints being mediators of prayer to God." 

He evidently had nothing further to offer. He saw 
the difficulty, and, after some hesitation, from which 
I was not disposed to extricate him, being in hopes 
of having raised a doubt, or at least a question, in his 
mind that might work there hereafter, he said that, 
at all events, the Council of Trent had not command- 
ed the practice. 

To this I said that the point for him and for me to 
consider for our own soul's sake was not whether the 
Council of Trent commanded it or not. There could 
be no question as to the fact that the thing was prac- 
ticed ; and though it was attempted to justify it by 
saying we should approach an earthly sovereign 
through his courtiers or favorites, and ought in the 
same way to seek access to the King of heaven, yet, 
when it is considered that, according to his system, 
we must first make our petition known to the king, 
and then the king must make it known to his court- 
iers or favorites, and then they must tell it back again 
to the king — when it is considered that his sugges- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. H3 

tion requires such a parallel as this, it must be felt 
that it requires no elaborate refutation. 

He seemed to feel the difficulty of his position, and 
to be revolving in his mind how he best could escape 
it. But, although he exhibited a desire to find an 
answer, as if anxious to gain a controversial victory 
rather than to attain a truth, I yet felt that the diffi- 
culty might, by the blessing of divine grace, give birth 
to other difficulties ; and so, shaking his confidence in 
the imagined impregnability of his Church, might 
lead eventually to further and fresh inquiry. I could 
not expect that any thing that I could offer, especial- 
ly under the peculiar circumstances and manner in 
which I was obliged to state my views, could have 
any lasting effect on his mind, especially as I could 
so seldom give expression to my argument as if it 
were my own deep feeling, but only as a suggestion 
as to what might possibly be the impression on the 
minds of others. But I also felt much encourage- 
ment, for I knew I was acting for the best, and that 
it was my duty to leave the result, in a spirit of 
prayer and faith, with Him who orders all things ac- 
cording to the councils of his own will. In this feel- 
ing, therefore, when I observed him perfectly perplex- 
ed, I pressed the difficulty in another form. 

I added, that I could not see how the practice could 
be " good and profitable," inasmuch as it lay on the 
verge of idolatry. "Without saying that it was idol- 
atry in the strict sense of the word, there were many 
who could scarcely see how they could avoid idolatry, 
for there was no certainty as to the real sanctity of 
these saints ; there were many enrolled in the canon 



1 14 MORNINGS A 

of saints, of whose title to that pre-eminence there 
was no great evidence — at all events, no very satis- 
factory or certain evidence. In short, no man on 
earth could speak with certainty as to the persons 
who are saints in heaven. There were many persons 
who had no faith in the process of canonization — no 
confidence in the process of examination before can- 
onization — no assurance of the genuine sanctity of 
the persons canonized — even more, who believed that 
some of those supposed saints were in a far worse re- 
gion than heaven ; and thus the praying to them 
might prove to be praying to devils instead of saints, 
and so be the very worst species of idolatry. 

He said that, though my objection might hold so 
far as absolute certainty was required, yet that there 
was moral certainty as to the sanctity of those who 
were enrolled or canonized as saints, and he thought 
that moral certainty was sufficient in such a case ; 
that we might reasonably and safely proceed on moral 
certainty ; but that, at all events, men might pray to 
the Virgin and the apostles, as there could be no doubt 
as to their sanctity. 

I replied that this objection did not apply to them, 
but to St. Dominic, St. Francis, St. Thomas a Becket, 
and some others. St. Dominic was remarkable as the 
most ferocious of persecutors, St. Francis as the in- 
ventor of superstitions, and St. Thomas as the dis- 
turber of kingdoms ; that the argument applied to such 
saints as they ; but that the objection, so far as the 
Virgin and the apostles were concerned, was that 
drawn from the impossibility of their hearing the 
prayers that were offered to them. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. J15 

He paused a moment, and then stated that the an- 
cient fathers of the Church recommended the practice. 

I replied by saying that it was very true that some 
of the fathers seemed to recommend the practice, but 
it was equally true that some others of them as strong- 
ly objected against it ; that the most diverse and op- 
posite passages might be cited from them upon the 
point, not only from different fathers, but even from 
the same father, his writings in one place being the 
opposite of his opinions recorded in another ; and I pro- 
posed at once to produce passage for passage with him 
in the library — to produce a passage against the prac- 
tice for every one he could produce in its support. 
And I then suggested, that if this could be done, the 
writings of the fathers ought to be laid aside as con- 
tradictory, and therefore of no authority on the subject. 

He hesitated in his answer to this, but after a 
moment replied that the contradictions were only ap- 
parent and not real, and could be easily reconciled. 

I referred at the instant to St. Chrysostom, where 
he cites the example of the woman of Canaan, not 
stopping to pray to the apostles, but going to Christ 
himself. " God," says Chrysostom, " is always near. 
If you entreat a man, you must inquire what he is 
doing, and whether he is asleep or at leisure, and per- 
haps the servant gives no answer. But with God 
there is nothing of all this. Whenever you go and 
call on Him, He hears ; with Him there is no want of 
leisure, no mediator, no servant to keep you off. Mark 
the wisdom of the woman of Canaan. She does not 
pray to James — she does not beseech John — she does 
not fly to Peter ; but she breaks through them all, 



Jig MORNINGS AMONG 

saying, I want no mediator, but, taking repentance 
as my spokesman, I come to the fountain itself. It 
was for this He left the heavens ; it was for this He 
became flesh ; it was that such as I might have bold- 
ness to speak to Himself. I want no mediator ; have 
mercy upon me." I argued that this was language 
against going to the saints very different from what 
my friend had employed on this point. 

To this he replied that he could adduce passages 
from St. Chrysostom quite as strong in favor of the 
practice, and that such as I had cited were capable 
of explanation ; that the woman certainly ought not 
to have gone to St. Peter or St. James, for that the 
Lord himself was present. He was there in the flesh, 
and she ought to have gone to Him at once, and this 
was all that was designed by St. Chrysostom. 

I reminded him that such an explanation might ap- 
ply to the fact in the gospel narrative, but that the 
argument was not on the gospel narrative, but on the 
exhortation of St. Chrysostom. He expressly says, in 
another place, " When we have a petition to make to 
men, it is often the case that we can not go straight 
to themselves and speak with them, but it is neces- 
sary for us first to procure the favor of their ministers, 
or stewards, or officers ; but with God it is not thus. 
There is no need of intercessors of prayer with Him, 
and He is not so ready to hear our prayers, and an- 
swer graciously when we pray through others, as when 
we come and pray of ourselves to Him." Now our 
Lord was not there present when St. Chrysostom gave 
this advice to his people, and therefore the explanation 
does not apply — does not touch the real point of thf 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



117 



argument, namely, that St. Chrysostom advises us not 
to go to the saints, but to go directly to Christ Himself. 

He avoided this precise point, and went on to say 
that he could cite places from St. Chrysostom and 
other fathers that were quite opposite to this ; and 
though there might thus be the appearance of self-con- 
tradiction in their writings, yet they could easily be 
explained by a comparison with other places ; that 
apparently contradictory passages might be cited in 
reference to the blessed Trinity — to the incarnation, 
&c. ; that this was particularly true in reference to 
the use of images, against which there certainly were 
very strong passages in some of the fathers, but those 
passages ought to be explained away instead of being 
regarded as contradictory or opposed to images, for it 
ought not to be supposed that the fathers were opposed 
to images, St. Gregory expressly saying that images 
might be kept for devotion, but not for worship, and 
Epiphanius and others were equally clear. 

I reminded him that, when Epiphanius saw a vail 
or curtain in the church with a picture on it, he im- 
mediately tore it in pieces and forbid the practice. 

He took no notice of this, but added that in the old 
Liturgies there were prayers to the saints, and as 
Liturgies were the truest tests or evidences of the 
opinion of the Church, so they prove beyond answer 
the practice of the primitive churches. 

I said, in reply to this, that I was under the oppo- 
site impression ; that I had seen these Liturgies, those 
that go by the names of Basil, Nazianzen, Chrysos- 
tom, and others, and never saw prayers to the saints ; 
that there were express prayers for the Virgin Mary, 



11$ MORNINGS AMONG 

and the apostles, and the saints, but not prayers to 
them ; that, so far as my reading went, it appeared 
to me that in the ancient Liturgies generally, the 
prayers were for the saints, and in the modern Litur- 
gies of Rome, the prayers were to them ; and that this 
was some difference indeed, and one that at all events 
took away the cogency of what he had stated in ref- 
erence to the Liturgies ani the practice of the primi- 
tive churches. 

He denied this in a manner that, as it struck me, 
showed he had either never before heard my statement, 
or had at least never examined the subject with much 
care ; and he seemed to regard his own statement as 
so certain as to be beyond contradiction ; so he turned 
the subject, and reverting to the former point, said 
that the practice of praying to the Virgin Mary was 
found to be a holy practice — a practice greatly tend- 
ing to promote holiness in those that cultivate it. 
"When," he said, warmly, "we think of the purity 
and the holiness of the Virgin ; when we think of hei 
as selected by God to bear his Son in her womb ; 
when we think of her as the purest and holiest of 
creatures, the very thought of one so pure and holy 
will dissipate every thought of impurity and unholi- 
ness ; the very thought of one so sinless will take away 
every thought of sin. A devotion to the blessed Vir- 
gin prevents us from sinning, and a sincere devotion 
to her is a great safeguard against sin." 

Such a sentiment as this could scarcely be heard 
unmoved by any one who loved the Gospel and cher- 
ished a feeling for the glory of the Savior. It was 
substituting Mary for Christ; substituting the thought 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. Ijg 

and recollection of Mary for the thought and recollec* 
tion of Christ ; substituting the notion of her purity 
for the reality of his purity, and substituting some 
fanciful ideas respecting her for the remembrance of 
his death, and sacrifice, and atonement as a safeguard 
against sin. It was a difficulty with which I had 
often to struggle in endeavoring to repress the strong 
and warm expression of my real feelings on such oc- 
casions of blasphemy ; for I could scarcely think oth- 
erwise of the sentiment. But I was, considering the 
natural warmth of my nature, greatly restrained and 
preserved from showing a decision of feeling which 
might have compelled my retirement from Rome. 

I therefore merely asked him, though with all the 
earnestness which I felt, whether, if attending the bed 
of a dying man, he would feel himself justified in 
speaking to an immortal soul, when about to pass into 
eternity, and desiring him to fly to Mary ; that in all 
his doubts and perplexities he was to look to Mary ; 
that in all his fears and terrors he was to look to Mary. 
I asked whether, considering his responsibility at such 
a moment, he would address a dying man in language 
that pointed only to the Virgin Mary, and made no 
mention of Jesus Christ ? I then read the following 
words from the Roman Breviary. " If the winds of 
temptation arise, if thou run upon the rocks of tribu- 
lation, look to the star, call upon Mary. If thou art 
tossed upon the waves of pride, of ambition, of detrac- 
tion, of envy, look to the star, call upon Mary. If 
anger, or avarice, or the temptations of the flesh toss 
the bark of thy mind, look to Mary. If, disturbed 
with the greatness of thy sins, troubled at the defile- 



120 MORNINGS AMONG 

ment of thy conscience, affrighted at the horrors of 
the judgment, thou beginnest to be swallowed up in 
the gulf of sadness, the abyss of despair, think upon 
Mary — in dangers, in difficulties, in doubts, think 
upon Mary, invoke Mary. Let her not depart from 
thy mouth, let her not depart from thy heart," &c. 
I asked him solemnly whether he would use such lan- 
guage, even though sanctioned by his Breviary, in pre- 
paring a dying man for the presence of God in the 
eternal world. 

He replied unhesitatingly that he would, and then 
went on to argue that experience justified him ; that 
experience proved that the prayers offered to the Vir- 
gin were heard and answered ; that mothers praying 
to her who was herself a mother, with all the sym- 
pathies of a mother, were heard and answered ; that 
such prayers for children in sin, or in danger, or in 
sickness, were heard and answered ; and it was this 
practical experience that proved the great encourage- 
ment to the devotion of ourselves to the Virgin Mary. 
He then went on to say that a Catholic devotion to 
the blessed Virgin never interfered with a right devo- 
tion to Jesus Christ, but redounded rather to his glo- 
ry ; but that it required a Catholic heart to see and 
understand this ; that one who was not a Catholic 
could not understand it ; that the ignorant often per- 
verted it, going on in sin under the belief that, by 
praying to her, she will pardon them ; that all this 
was only the abuse of the system ; that the devotion 
to Mary was a holy devotion, and a source of holiness. 
If we think of one so pure, so chaste, so holy, the 
thought will keep us from sin. St. Alphonso de Li- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 121 

guori was a proof of this, so devoted to the blessed 
Virgin, and so holy in his life. The order of the Jes- 
uits was another illustration. Their devotion to the 
blessed Virgin is known through the whole world ; 
and as for their holiness, they have been accused of 
ambition, of intrigue, of politics, with opposing sov- 
ereigns and disturbing the peace of kingdoms, but no 
one has ever charged them with impurity or immo- 
rality. They are a living proof that devotion to the 
blessed Virgin is conducive to holiness. But, he add- 
ed, it requires a Catholic heart to comprehend this. 
To others it may seem dishonoring to Jesus Christ ; 
yet it is not so. The Holy Virgin is never honored 
above Christ, nor as equal to Christ, but only as His 
mother, who has a mother's influence over him ; and 
thus all the homage and worship paid to her is really 
a homage and a worship to Him, inasmuch as it is 
only as His mother that it is offered to her. 

He ran on in this way for some time, and I feared 
to interrupt him by any attempt at opposing or con- 
futing him. It would have given me the appearance 
of an opponent rather than a listener ; and when I 
considered the station and influence of the person, I 
felt particularly anxious not to awaken suspicion, and 
desirous to appear as an intelligent and inquiring 
listener. 

I therefore said that I was acquainted with some 
of the works of the St. Alphonso de Liguori whom he 
mentioned ; that among other things in his « Glories 
of Mary" is the vision of the two ladders extending 
from earth to heaven ; that at the top of one is the 
Virgin Mary, and at the top of the other is Jesus 

F 



122 MORNINGS AMONG 

Christ ; that all who attempted to enter heaven by 
the ladder of Jesus Christ fell back and failed, while 
all who tried the ladder of the Virgin Mary succeed- 
ed by her assistance. I mentioned this as I had al- 
ready done in conversation with another priest, and I 
asked whether such language did not exalt the Virgin 
Mary, not only as equal, but as superior to Jesus 
Christ — superior in the love, and compassion, and 
mercy of a Savior, as if she was a safer Savior than 
Jesus Christ ? 

He seemed thoroughly vexed and ashamed at this 
quotation from an author and saint whom he had so 
highly praised. He hesitated, and seemed perplexed 
for a satisfactory answer ; but at length said that 
such language was intended by Liguori merely to ex- 
press the love of Mary, and to show how willingly 
and how effectually she uses her influence as a moth- 
er in behalf of those devoted to her. He then added, 
that it was the opinion of many of the fathers and 
saints that God hears more quickly the prayers that 
are offered through the blessed Virgin ; that so great- 
ly is she in the love of God, and so great in her in- 
fluence with God, that the prayers offered through 
her ascend to heaven more quickly, and are heard 
and answered more speedily and effectually than oth- 
erwise, and this was probably the meaning of Liguori 
in the details of the two ladders from St. Bernard ; 
that many sinners are troubled with fears on account 
of their sins ; that surely we all must at times be in 
fear on account of our many sins ; that many such 
fearful or timid sinners come to Mary instead of Je- 
sus. They feel that she is so merciful, so loving, so 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 123 

willing to save them, that they come to her instead 
of coming to him — that when they think of Jesus 
Christ they are afraid. 

" Afraid of Jesus !" I exclaimed, involuntarily, 
startled at the idea of Jesus being less attractive, less 
loving, less merciful than Mary. " Afraid of Jesus, 
who died for them — who showed his love in dying for 
them, and yet not afraid of Mary, who never profess- 
ed or showed any love for them !" 

He immediately checked himself, and looked sus- 
piciously and inquiringly at me. 

I feared I had shown my feelings too plainly, and 
therefore, in the hope of turning the subject, asked 
him to explain the vision of the two ladders on his 
principles. 

He said, expressively, that he had already explained 
the doctrine of the Church ; that as our Lord on the 
cross desired John to behold his mother, and that dis- 
ciple obeyed and took her to his own home, so he was 
a type of the Church, which is, in like manner, ever to 
look on Mary as its mother ; and therefore the Church 
respects her, loves her, serves her, and venerates her as 
its mother, to whom, as a child, she comes for comfort, 
consolation, grace, and assistance in every time of need. 

I replied that our Lord on the cross desired the 
Virgin Mary to look on the beloved disciple John as 
if he were her son, instead of Him now dying on the 
cross, and then desired the beloved disciple John to 
look on Mary, now bereaved and desolate, as if she 
were his own mother, and to take care of her as such. 
And the narrative states that John, acting on this, took 
Mary to his own home, and thus complied with the 



124 MORNINGS AMONG 

dying wishes of Jesus Christ. " But," I added, " how 
does this prove the moral of the two ladders, and those 
seeking Heaven through Mary succeeding and being 
saved, while those seeking heaven through Jesus Christ 
fail in the effort ?" 

He replied that he was unwilling to argue further ; 
that he had stated the doctrine of the Church ; that 
that doctrine, in honoring Mary, was not dishonoring 
to Christ ; that it was a subject on which, as that of 
images and pictures, there was much misunderstood, 
and that it required " a Catholic heart" to understand 
it rightly. 

He thus broke off the conversation. 



CHAPTER V. 



Invitation to a Polemical Discussion — The Prohibition of the Scriptures 
for Sale at Rome — Universal Ignorance. of the Sacred Volume — Sal- 
vation only in the Church of Rome — Infallibility of the Popes neces- 
sary to be believed — Whether there be Salvation in the Church of 
England — The Church of Rome has never claimed Infallibility. 

A communication had been made to me to the ef- 
fect that the reverend professor of Dogmatic Theolo- 
gy wished to have a theological discussion with me. 
Whether this arose from a hope that he might prove 
a means of making a proselyte of me, or from a de- 
sire for a controversial conference with me, in conse- 
quence of our previous collision in the Collegio Roma- 
no, it is not for me to state. A communication had 
been made to me, by a clerical friend of the Church 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 225 

of England, that the professor had expressed himself 
thus desirous of a meeting, and a formal message, 
with an invitation or challenge to a theological dis- 
cussion, was afterward conveyed to me by the rever- 
end professor of Canon Law. I gladly accepted it. 
I felt it might prove a new and additional source of 
information as to the real nature of the Church of 
Rome, and the arguments by which she is supported, 
though I certainly felt rather nervous at the prospect 
of a controversy with two of the most able and subtle 
of the order of Jesuits. A brother clergyman was with 
me, and we knelt together and prayed with earnest- 
ness for the light and grace of which we felt in need. 

On the appointed day we knelt together in prayer, 
and soon afterward the professor of Canon Law and 
the professor of Dogmatic Theology were announced. 
At first our conversation was of a general character, 
but soon turned to those subjects which were conge- 
nial to all our feelings. 

Some remarks had been made by me designedly on 
the subject of the Holy Scriptures, with a view to 
directing our conversation into a profitable channel ; 
and I took occasion to remark on the ignorance of the 
Holy Scriptures so prevalent among the people of It- 
aly — so prevalent, indeed, that it was impossible to 
argue with them ; and that it seemed to English 
minds a practical illustration of that which was so 
often asserted in England, namely, that the Church 
of Rome was opposed to the circulation of the sacred 
volume. 

The professor of Dogmatic Theology replied by 
saying that, although it was very true that the peo- 



126 MORNINGS AMONG 

pie were wholly unacquainted with the nature of the 
Holy Scriptures, yet it was very incorrect to suppose 
that the Catholic Church was opposed to their read- 
ing them ; that the Church set a great value on the 
sacred volume, and venerated it too highly to let it 
be used commonly or indiscriminately ; that, so far 
from forbidding its circulation and perusal, the Church 
permitted it to all whom she thought likely to profit 
by it, and forbade it only to those who, being igno- 
rant, would be likely to pervert and misapply it ; but 
that it was a great mistake, and indeed a calumny 
against the Catholic Church, to say that she was op- 
posed to the full and unrestricted use and circulation 
of the Scriptures. £ 

The answer I made to this was, that, having re- 
sided many years among a Roman Catholic popula- 
tion in Ireland, I had always found that the sacred 
volume was forbidden to them ; and that, since I 
came to Italy, and especially to Rome, I observed the 
most complete ignorance of the Holy Scriptures, and 
that it was ascribed by themselves to a prohibition on 
the part of the Church. 

He at once stated that there must be some mis- 
take, as the book was permitted to all who could un- 
derstand it, and was, in fact, in very general circu- 
lation in Rome. 

I said that I had heard the contrary, and that it 
was impossible to procure a copy of the Holy Scrip- 
tures in the Italian tongue in the city of Rome ; that 
I had so heard from an English gentleman who had 
resided there for ten years ; that I looked upon the 
statement as scarcely credible ; that I wished much 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. J27 

to ascertain the matter for my own information ; that 
I had one day resolved to test this by visiting every 
bookselling establishment in the city of Rome ; that 
I had gone to the book-shop belonging to the Propa- 
ganda Fide — to that patronized by his holiness the 
pope — to that which was connected with the Collegio 
Romano, and was patronized by the order of Jesuits 
— to that which was established for the supply of En- 
glish and other foreigners — to those which sold old 
and second-hand books, and that in every establish- 
ment, without exception, I found that the Holy Scrip- 
tures were not for sale. I could not procure a single 
copy in the Roman language and of a portable size 
in the whole city of Rome ; and that, when I asked 
each bookseller the reason of his not having so import- 
ant a volume, I was answered in every instance, 6 
prohibito, or non e, permesso — that the volume was 
prohibited, or that it was not permitted to be sold. I 
added that Martini's edition was offered to me in two 
places, but it was in twenty-four volumes, and at a 
cost of 105 francs (that is, four pounds sterling), and 
that, under such circumstances, I could not but re- 
gard the Holy Scriptures as a prohibited book, at least 
in the city of Rome. 

He replied by acknowledging that it was very prob- 
able that I could not find the volume in Rome, espe- 
cially as the population of Rome was very poor, and 
not able to purchase the sacred volume ; and that the 
real reason the Scriptures were not at the booksellers, 
and also were not in circulation, was not that they 
were forbidden or prohibited by the Church, but that 
the people of Rome were too poor to buy them. 



128 MORNINGS AMONG 

I replied that they probably were too poor, whether 
in Rome or in England, to give 105 francs for the 
book, but that the clergy of Rome, so numerous and 
wealthy, should do as in England, namely, form an 
association for cheapening the copies of the Scrip- 
tures. 

He said, in reply, that the priests were too poor to 
cheapen the volume, and that the people were too 
poor to purchase it. 

I then stated that if this was really the case — that 
if there was no prohibition against the sacred volume 
— that if they would be willing to circulate it, and 
that, really and sincerely, there was no other objec- 
tion than the difficulties arising from the price of the 
book, that difficulty should at once be obviated. I 
would myself undertake to obtain from England, 
through the Bible Society, any number of Bibles that 
could be circulated, and that they should be sold at 
the lowest possible price, or given freely and gratui- 
tously to the inhabitants of Rome. I stated that the 
people of England loved the Scriptures beyond all 
else in this world, and that it would be to them a 
source of delight and thanksgiving to give for gratui- 
tous circulation any number of copies of the sacred 
volume that the inhabitants of Rome could require. 

He immediately answered that he thanked me for 
the generous offer, but that there would be no use in 
accepting it, as the people of Rome were very igno- 
rant — were in a state of brutal ignorance — were un- 
able to read any thing, and therefore could not profit 
by reading the Scriptures, even if we supplied them 
gratuitously. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. . J29 

I could not conceal from myself that he was pre- 
varicating with me ; that his former excuse of pover- 
ty, and this latter excuse of ignorance, were mere 
evasions ; so I asked him whose fault it was that the 
people remained in such universal and unaccountable 
ignorance. There were above five thousand priests, 
monks, and nuns, besides cardinals and prelates, in the 
city of Rome ; that the whole population was only 
thirty thousand families ; that thus there was a priest, 
or a monk, or a nun for every six families in Rome ; 
that thus there was ample means for the education of 
the people ; and I asked, therefore, whether the Church 
was not to blame for this ignorance on the part of the 
people. 

He immediately turned from the subject, saying 
that the Church held the infallibility of the pope, to 
whom it therefore belonged to give the only infallible 
interpretation of the Scriptures. 

This led the conversation in another direction. If I 
had prevented this, it would have given me the ap- 
pearance of a partisan, as if I were more anxious to 
prove and fasten a fault upon the Church of Rome, in- 
stead of one who was searching for information, and 
was entering on a friendly rather than a controversial 
conversation. I allowed him, therefore, to lead me to 
the question of infallibility, feeling that it was a sub- 
ject which might tfe turned to the advantage of truth. 

I therefore remarked, somewhat carelessly in man- 
ner, that I believed, or at least had heard, that there 
was much difference of opinion in the Church of Rome 
as to the seat of infallibility ; that I had heard of some 
asserting it to reside in the popes ; that others held it 

F 2 



130 MORNINGS AMONG 

resided in General Councils ; while others still main- 
tained that infallibility was the exclusive possession 
of the Church in general. I said that, as far as I could 
form a judgment upon such a subject, the preponder- 
ance in the argument was in favor of those who claim- 
ed it for the popes ; that, generally, all the various ad- 
vocates seemed to me to argue very powerfully when 
disproving the positions of their opponents, but became 
singularly weak when endeavoring to establish their 
own ; but still I thought the weight of argument was 
in favor of the pope. 

The professor, my opponent, seemed delighted with 
this admission, and seemed to take courage from it to 
express himself very strongly, saying, in the broadest 
and clearest terms, that no man could be a true Catho- 
lic — a true member of that Church, out of which there 
is no salvation, who did not believe in the entire su- 
premacy and infallibility of the popes as successors ot 
St. Peter. 

I replied that such a sentiment was by no means 
universal ; that it was so far from being held by the 
Roman Catholics of England and Ireland, that they 
would look on it as illiberal and untrue ; that they did 
not hold it, and that no man in those countries would 
assert that none could be saved unless in the Church 
of Rome. 

He said that it was impossible ri!y statement could 
be correct, as no man was a true Catholic who thought 
any one could find salvation out of the Church of Rome. 
They could not be true Catholics. 

I answered that they seemed as zealous and as true 
as others, and that there could be no mistake as to my 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 131 

statement, for that some of the priests in England and 
Ireland had often, in conversation with myself, denied 
the doctrine of exclusive salvation ; and that I had 
known some of the priests make the same statement 
in the most public manner. 

He again exclaimed that it was impossible ; no true 
Catholic could say so ; and if any one said it, he was 
not a true Catholic. 

I repeated my words, adding that I had heard it 
too often to be mistaken; that the people of England 
hated exclusiveness, and bigotry, and narrowness of 
mind; that the Roman Catholic priests, when enter- 
ing on controversy, were therefore always anxious 
to disclaim all notions of exclusive salvation for the 
Church of Rome ; and that I had myself been repeat- 
edly a witness to such disclaimers, so that there could 
be no mistake. Whether they were sincere in such 
disclaimers, it was not for me to say ; but all those 
among them who aimed at any popular influence al- 
ways disclaimed it. One priest, a Mr. Esmonde, whom 
I heard disclaiming it on a public platform, was a mem- 
ber of the order of the Jesuits, and therefore I suppose 
a true Catholic member of the Church of Rome. 

He again said, with vehemence, that it was impos- 
sible ; such persons were not true Catholics, and cer- 
tainly were a great injury to the Church. The truth 
of the Church was, that no man could be saved unless 
he was a member of the Church of Rome, and believed 
in the supremacy and infallibility of the popes as the 
successors of St. Peter. 

I said that that was going very far indeed ; for, be- 
sides requiring men to be members of the Church of 



132 MORNINGS AMONG 

Rome, it required their belief in the supremacy and 
infallibility of the popes. 

He reiterated the same sentiment in language still 
stronger than before, adding that every one must be 
damned in the flames of hell who did not believe in 
the supremacy and infallibility of the pope. 

I could not but smile at all this, while I felt it de- 
rived considerable importance from the position of the 
person who uttered it. He was the chief teacher of 
theology in the order of the Jesuits, and the chosen 
professor of theology in the Collegio Romano — the Uni- 
versity of Rome. I smiled, however, and reminded 
him that his words were consigning all the people of 
England to the damnation of hell. 

He repeated his words emphatically, and with some 
assumption of manner, as if he thought he could over- 
awe or frighten me by the statement. He said that 
the people of England would all certainly be damned 
eternally in hell unless they embraced the doctrine of 
the infallibility of the pope. He looked at me with an 
air of triumph. 

" And what," said I, " what is to become of me? I 
do not hold, nor can I hold that doctrine ; and do you 
consign me, and numbers of others like me, to ever- 
lasting damnation, because I do not hold it ?" 

He did not hesitate a moment in answering that I 
could not be saved ; that when once I had the oppor- 
tunity and the power of hearing the truth, and being 
informed of it, I could not be saved if I did not re- 
ceive it ; but that, if I had not the opportunity and 
power, he could not speak so decisively. 

I then looked at him with much seriousness, and 



THE JESUITS AT EOME. I33 

spoke with great deliberation, saying that truth — the 
truth of God, was the great object of my researches, 
and that I felt that the whole world was nothing in 
comparison with it ; that I had read the Holy Scrip- 
tures of God ; that I had read the controversial writ- 
ings of Cardinal Bellarmine, Bossuet, and all the 
ablest controversialists of the Church of Rome ; that 
I had read also the works of the ablest English writ- 
ers in answer to them ; that for many years I had 
been seeking a mastery over the intricacies of these 
questions ; that I had come to Rome to obtain a per- 
sonal inspection of the Church at its fountain-head ; 
that I had many and long conferences with several 
priests in Rome on the subject, and that I was abso- 
lutely constrained, on a balance of the arguments, not 
only not to believe, but to reject altogether the doc- 
trine of the supremacy and infallibility of the pope ; 
that I therefore was one who had enjoyed every op- 
portunity and power of adequate information on the 
point ; and, considering that I had arrived fairly and 
honestly, and to the best of my judgment, and to the 
conviction of my conscience, at the conclusion to re- 
ject this doctrine, I asked him whether he would still 
consign me to the damnation of hell ? I spoke with 
a grave look and in a solemn manner, to prevent tri- 
fling on so important a question. 

He hesitated and said, that if I had indeed used all 
possible diligence, as I intimated, and if I still found 
my prejudices invincible — if I was still invincibly ig- 
norant, he would not speak too decidedly. He was 
unwilling to do so. The Church had made an ex- 
ception of such a case ; but he hoped I should yet see 



234 MORNINGS AMONG 

and believe It. His manner in all this showed that 
his natural courtesy alone prevented his declaring a 
decided judgment. 

I felt that quite enough had been said upon this 
point. I had obtained the judgment of one professor 
very clearly, and observed that the other professor did 
not contradict him in the least ; so I suggested that 
we should turn to some other subject. 

He immediately proposed to me to argue the ques- 
tion of the possibility of salvation in the Church of 
England, suggesting that as no one could be saved 
out of the Church of Rome, he would prove that no 
one could be saved in the Church of England ; ask- 
ing me to enter on the question, and undertaking, on 
his part, to prove against me that the Church of En- 
gland was not the Church of Christ ; and that, while 
I continued a member of the Church of England, I 
could not be saved. It was a formal challenge. 

I replied that I could not assert that the Church 
of England was the Church of Christ ; that I believed 
and held she was a part, a member, a branch of the 
Church of Christ ; that she held all necessary truth, 
and that salvation was to be found within her, and 
that I was prepared to maintain thus far, but no fur- 
ther. I could not defend the proposition in the form 
in which he proposed it. 

He said that he would shape his argument so as 
to embrace that view, and then, before he commenc- 
ed, we agreed that nothing should be asserted respect- 
ing the doctrines of either Church, by either him or 
myself, without producing the canon, or decree, or 
bull, or article of the Church containing it. He was 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I35 

not to claim for the Church of Rome, nor to ascribe 
to the Church of England, any thing whatever, with- 
out producing the authoritative canon of one Church, 
or the authoritative article of the other. I was pledg- 
ed in the same way, and thus it was so arranged that 
there could be no railing accusations, no undue asser- 
tions, no claims on one hand or charges on the other, 
no assertions or denials, as all was to proceed on the 
authoritative documents of the respective churches. 
I was careful to have this settled between us before 
proceeding further, as I perceived he was disposed to 
enter on the question more as a practiced and confi- 
dent controversialist than as a sincere inquirer. He 
seemed a bold, lively, warm-hearted man, experienced 
in the disputations of the college, and confident in his 
own resources, and he seemed to have sought me 
rather in a youthful spirit of emulation and desire for 
a polemical tournament. He wished to try his prow- 
ess and break a lance with me, and that, too, in no 
unkindly or ungenerous spirit. I resolved, therefore, 
to meet him, so as to show him that the argument 
was not so clearly with him as he had imagined, and 
that he might find in me his equal in argument, 
though certainly far from being his equal either in 
talent or in learning. 

He commenced according to the method still prac- 
ticed in the classes of the college, namely, arguing in 
the form of a syllogism. He said, 

The Church of Christ is infallible. 

The Church of England confesses herself fallible. 

Therefore the Church of England is not the Church 
of Christ. 



J 36 MORNINGS AMONG 

I at once pointed out the fallacy or error of his ar» 
gument, showing, as I had already stated, that the 
Church of England did not pretend to be the Church 
of Christ, but only a part, or branch, or member of 
it ; and that the fallibility of a part of the Church 
was no proof she was not a part of the Church, to 
which only, as a whole, infallibility could belong. 

He acknowledged this to be sufficient, and said he 
would state his argument in another form. 

The Church of Christ, in all her parts, is infallible. 

The Protestant Church of England confesses her- 
self fallible. 

Therefore the Church of England is not a part of 
the Church of Christ. 

I answered that the syllogism was as faulty as the 
preceding one, but that I would at once meet it by 
denying his minor ; that is, by denying that the Prot- 
estant Church of England confesses herself to be fal- 
lible : I was not aware that she had made such a con- 
fession. 

He laughed at me good-humoredly, and with a look 
of triumph, and said that the Church of England had 
confessed it, and he could produce the article. He 
referred me to the Article XIX. 

I produced the article and read the words, " As the 
Churches of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have 
erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only 
in their living and manner of ceremonies, but also 
in matters of faith." I said that this Article of the 
Church of England asserted that other churches, and 
the Church of Rome in particular, had erred, and were 
fallible, but that she had said nothing of herself ; and 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I37 

certainly had not, as his argument supposed and re- 
quired, confessed herself fallible. 

He frankly acknowledged this to be a sufficient an- 
swer, and that his argument had failed, but said he 
would arrange his syllogism in another form, so as to 
obviate this. He seemed, however, slightly — very 
slightly annoyed at finding himself so easily foiled in 
his first two attempts. He proceeded with great quick- 
ness to arrange his argument again. 

The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to 
be infallible. 

The Protestant Church of England does not claim 
to be infallible. 

Therefore the Church of England is not the Church 
of Christ. 

The ordinary mode of replying to this would have 
been by denying the major, namely, that the Church 
in all its parts claimed to be infallible ; and this would 
have opened the whole question of the infallibility of 
the Church, whether as a whole in the Church gen- 
eral, or in a part as the Church of England. I felt, 
however, in my secret soul, that there was another 
mode of dealing with it. I had, in years long past* 
pondered the matter well and thoughtfully, and many 
years' experience and research alike confirmed my feel- 
ing. I had never expressed it in private, nor had I 
employed it in public, and I thought that the present 
was an occasion the most fitting possible to advance 
it. I knew that my present controversy was with an 
able and learned man, and not only so, but was with 
one of the most influential Jesuits in Rome, assisted 
by another member of the same order, profoundly 



138 MORNINGS AMONG 

versed in the Canon Law, and therefore peculiarly 
competent to deal with my argument. I felt, there- 
fore, disposed to try it. I am free to confess that I 
was somewhat nervous in advancing a position so ut- 
terly untried, especially considering the talents and 
learning of my opponents ; but I felt that He whose 
I was and whom I desired to serve, and who had hith- 
erto so wonderfully sustained me in many an arduous 
struggle, would turn my success or failure to some 
good account, by which His truth would be manifested 
and his Gospel glorified. So, after some moments' 
pause for reflection, I requested my opponent to re- 
peat, and kindly to write his syllogism on paper. 

He wrote it as follows : 

The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to 
be infallible. 

The Church of England does not claim to be in- 
fallible. 

Therefore the Church of England is not part of the 
Church of Christ. 

Having read it carefully, I drew my pen over the 
word "England" in the minor and in the conclusion, 
and writing the word " Rome" in its stead, I returned 
the paper as my answer. It was as follows : 

The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
infallible. 

The Church of Rome does not claim to be infallible. 

Therefore the Church of Rome is not part of the 
Church of Christ. 

On handing it to him in this altered form, I re- 
marked quietly that if his syllogism was legitimate as 
against the Church of England, it must be equally 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 239 

egitimate against the Church of Rome, and that there- 
fore he could not deny its conclusiveness. 

The moment he read it he laughed heartily but 
good-humoredly at me, and said that the Church of 
Rome did claim infallibility, and expressed surprise at 
my minor containing a statement so palpably incor- 
rect, and therefore so easily confuted. His companion 
joined him in his merriment, and they both seemed to 
rejoice in a victory so easily and so completely gained. 

I was in no other degree affected by this than to feel 
thankful that it gave me a little space to collect my- 
self, and to express my argument with precision ; I 
therefore calmly reminded my friends that the Church 
of Rome had never, on any occasion, asserted her own 
infallibility ; that some of her members and some of 
her advocates — some of her individual divines had, 
without any authority from her, claimed and asserted 
it for her and in her name, but that she had never, in 
any form whatever, either claimed or asserted it herself. 

They replied with one voice that the Church of 
Rome had always and in all places claimed and as- 
serted her infallibility ; that it was frequently done ; 
and so well known and so universally recognized and 
admitted, that they wondered how I could mean to 
question it. They spoke with evident surprise, mar- 
veling how I could think of making so strange and un- 
usual an assertion; and their surprise seemed so nat- 
ural, that, even though they were Jesuits, I felt they 
were sincere. They were really and truly surprised. 

I answered with cool and deliberate words, showing 
by my manner that I was conscious of the truth and 
reality of my position, and that I could not be turned 



140 MORNINGS AMONe 

from it by a laugh. I answered that there was no 
decree of any general council — that there was no bull 
of any pope — that there was no canon or article of an 
authoritative nature in the Church of Rome which as- 
serted or claimed infallibility for that Church. I re- 
minded them that this my statement was clear and 
explicit ; that it was of such a nature, that if it was 
untrue or founded on an untruth, it could most easily 
be confuted ; and all they had to do was that which I 
now challenged them to do — to name the decree of any 
council, or the bull of any pope, or the authoritative 
canon or article which claimed or asserted infallibility 
for their Church. I added that the terms of our pres- 
ent conference required that, as he claimed infallibil- 
ity for his Church, he should produce the authoritative 
document asserting that claim, or he should at least 
state when and where it was authoritatively asserted. 
After some moments' pause, he said he could pro- 
duce several instances, and named the Council of 
Constance, the Council of Basle, the Council of Flor- 
ence, and several other lesser authorities, I knew 
each of the decrees to which he referred ; and there- 
fore, when he said that one asserted the supremacy 
of the Church of Rome as the mother and mistress of 
all churches ; and that another held that every soul 
was subject to the Roman pontiff at the peril of his 
salvation ; and that others still asserted that every 
man must be obedient, and owed obedience to the suc- 
cessor of St. Peter ; and others, again, that it belong- 
ed to the Church of Rome to interpret Holy Scrip- 
ture — when he said all this, I reminded him that 
all this was beside the real question — was nothing to 



THE JESUITS AT K,OMti. 141 

the real point before us ; that my asseiilc^i was, that 
no received decree, or bull, or other authoritative doc- 
ument of the Church of Rome claimed infallibility r , 
and that he answered me only by producing some 
which claimed supremacy and authority. 

He said that supremacy and authority implied in- 
fallibility. 

I answered by an emphatic No ! I said that in 
England we felt that the law of the land was supreme 
and authoritative ; that we often felt that a specified 
law was a bad law — a mischievous law — a law that 
ought never to have been enacted, and ought imme- 
diately to be repealed ; but, bad and mischievous as 
we might think it, we yet felt it was still the law of 
the land, and was therefore possessed of a supremacy 
and authority to which we are bound to yield obedi- 
ence. But though we ascribe to the law, and to the 
legislative power of the nation, a supremacy and au- 
thority, we prove> by our efforts to repeal the obnox- 
ious law, that we do not ascribe infallibility to it. 
I then said that all the decrees, bulls, canons, &c, to 
which they referred me, only asserted such a suprem- 
acy and authority as demanded the subjection and 
obedience of men to the Church of Rome, or to the 
pope as its head, but not one of them claimed or as- 
serted infallibility for any party. 

My opponent here did not deny the principle I had 
thus laid down, but he seemed puzzled and perplexed 
at finding that all his documents failed in the precise 
point of asserting infallibility. He referred to several 
others which he had not already named, but in a mo- 
ment after he gave them up as inadequate ; all, when 



142 



MORNINGS AMONG 



examined, were disposed of by my preceding an- 
swer. 

I shall never forget, while I live, the spectacle of 
these two Jesuits, able, learned, and subtle as they 
were, and long habituated to controversy, yet so com- 
pletely perplexed at this turn of the argument as to 
be looking at one another, and consulting and endeav- 
oring to find an answer sufficiently plausible. My 
opponent, the reverend professor of Theology, seemed 
a little cast down at first, but soon rallied, and laugh- 
ed at the perplexity and singularity of his position 
He laughed good-naturedly, no longer at me, but at 
himself, and honestly said he had never seen the dif- 
ficulty before ; that he had thought the point clearly 
settled, but that it certainly was not so ; and that he 
could not see how to answer me. 

His companion, however, the reverend professor of 
Canon Law, was not so good-humored on the occa- 
sion. He was excited and annoyed at the failure, and 
asked confidently and warmly why it was that Prot- 
estants were always charging the Church of Rome 
with arrogance, and presumption, and blasphemy for 
claiming infallibility, if, as would now appear from 
the argument, she has never claimed it ; and why 
should it be made by me, and others like me, a ground , 
of charge against her, if we really believed she was 
not liable to that charge. And he asked, somewhat 
warmly, whether my habit of advancing this charge 
was not a sufficient proof that I believed that the 
Church of Rome really claimed infallibility. 

I was unwilling to reply to this in the warm spirit 
in which it was spoken, and I merely said that I had 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



143 



never objected to the Church of Rome that she had 
been arrogant, or presumptuous, or blasphemous in 
claiming infallibility, or even that she ever claimed 
it or pretended to it at all. I believed that, as a 
Church, she never, on any occasion whatever, had ad- 
vanced such a claim ; I knew, indeed, that her advo- 
cates usually claimed it for her, and that her contro- 
versialists generally asserted it for her, and that the 
multitude imagined she both claimed and possessed 
that divine prerogative ; but I also knew that they 
were not the Church — that a few learned advocates 
were not the Church — that a few subtle controver- 
sialists were not the Church — that the multitude of 
an ignorant people were not the Church — and I knew, 
also, that the Church herself had never claimed or 
asserted it. If I was wrong in this broad statement, 
I was in presence of those who could easily correct me. 
They could tell me when and where the Church had 
claimed or asserted it. They could name the council 
and point to the decree. They could designate the 
pope and point to the bull. There never was an as- 
sertion more easily confuted, if indeed it was capable 
of being confuted at all. 

They still asserted that the Church was infallible, 
and claimed to be infallible, though they seemed in a 
quiet way to acknowledge that they could not further 
prove their position. 

I reminded them that, by the terms arranged for 
our conference, they had no right to claim any thing 
as a doctrine of their Church unless they could name 
or produce the authoritative decree, bull, canon, or 
article which asserted it, and that, on the present oo- 



144 MOENINGS AMONG 

casion, they assumed infallibility as claimed and de- 
creed by the Church, but had altogether failed in ad- 
ducing the authority for their statement ; and then I 
added, that under those circumstances I had a right 
to argue, that if a church's not claiming to be infal- 
lible was evidence that it was not the Church of 
Christ, then the Church of Rome, from the circum- 
stance of this deficiency, could not be any part of 
the Church of Christ ; so I asked them how they 
liked their own process of argument. 

I must say, in justice to both these gentlemen, that 
they bore themselves with good temper and Christian 
good humor in this trying and difficult position ; and 
although at first they seemed to feel keenly, though 
kindly, their difficulty, yet they joined us — the three 
others who were present — in a laugh at the singularity 
and unexpected awkwardness of the position in which, 
by their own process of argument, they were placed. 

Our conversation soon took a more general turn, 
and did not revert to the main subject proposed for 
our conference. We soon after separated. 

When, a short time afterward, we met again, it was 
to consider whether the mass was a true, and proper, 
and propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and 
the dead, as stated in the canons of the Council of 
Trent. Our meeting was at the invitation of the rev- 
erend professor of Dogmatic Theology, and our argu- 
ment became unprofitble and uninteresting to the un- 
learned, owing to our time being spent chiefly on the 
question whether the words "ministering to the Lord," 
in Acts, xiii., 2, meant sacrificing or ministering in 
the ordinary sense of the word. He asserted that it 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I45 

meant sacrificing, in the strictness of that word. I 
maintained that the word was in several places in 
Scripture applied even to secular magistrates, whose 
work and office did not imply or involve the idea of 
sacrifice. He acknowledged this, but stated that my 
argument applied only to the word " ministering," 
whereas his argument was that the words " minister- 
ing to the Lord" had another meaning, and involved 
the idea of offering sacrifice. 

We soon after parted, and it never was my good 
fortune to have the pleasure of again meeting the pro- 
fessor of Theology, except when, on hearing of my ap- 
proaching departure from Rome, he came to bid me 
farewell. I was much pleased by his manner and 
gratified by his kindness. He spoke with earnestness, 
and I replied with some words of warm feeling and 
Christian anxiety. I trust that our meeting and our 
parting were not without profit to us both. 



CHAPTER VI. 



Conversation with the Professor of Canon Law — The Fete at the Jes- 
uits' Church, closing the Year — The Question of Infallibility residing 
in a Council or in a Pope — Seven Signs or Tests by which to Discern 
when the Pope is Infallible and when Fallible — The alleged Unsuit- 
ableness of the Scriptures as a Rule of Faith — The same Argument 
applied to the Papal Decisions. 

The prospect of an elaborate conference with the 
reverend professor of Canon Law in the Collegio Ro- 
mano was one of considerable interest to me. It had 

a 



146 MOENINGS AMONG 

been promised that he should be informed of my anx- 
iety for information as to the means or test by which I 
should be enabled to ascertain an infallible bull from a 
fallible one ; to know a pope pronouncing infallibly from 
one pronouncing fallibly ; to distinguish a decision ex 
cathedrh from one non ex cathedra. The point was one 
of no inconsiderable interest, and I felt no little pleas- 
ure in the anticipation of entering on it with one who 
was so competent to deal with it ; one who, from his 
learning, could state all that could best be offered on 
the question, and, at the same time, one who, from his 
position in the college, would add certain authority to 
his statements. This professor was a Jesuit, one of 
the ablest and most accomplished of his order, and cer- 
tainly one of the most elegant and most accomplished 
at Rome. I should have felt somewhat nervous at the 
prospect of this conversation, were it not that I had 
already had the good fortune of making his agreeable 
acquaintance, and that the point to be considered was 
one in which all the difficulties of argument would 
necessarily be on his side. 

The professor came on the appointed day, accom- 
panied, as usual, by a lay brother, and dressed in all 
the peculiar costume of the order of Jesuits. 

Our conversation commenced by my thanking him 
for his kindness in having made such gratifying ar- 
rangements to enable my wife, and myself, and one 
of our friends to witness the fete at the Church of 
Gesu, which belongs to the order. It was a fete cele- 
brated on the last day of the year. His holiness the 
pope had arranged to attend and to sing the Te Deum, 
as an act of public thanksgiving on the part of the 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 147 

head of the Church on earth for the blessings and mer- 
cies of the year that was then passing away forever. 
He attended in state. He was accompanied by the 
cardinals. The Swiss guards were arranged to pre- 
serve order. The congregation, which was chiefly 
English, was large. We were conducted by one of 
the order through a passage within the wall of the 
church, by which we entered a small apartment, and 
were then led through a series of chambers, apparently 
those of a convent, till we were placed in a small gal- 
lery in the best possible position for observing all, 
while we were ourselves beyond the observation of any. 
As seen from this position, nothing could surpass the 
picturesque beauty of the spectacle, especially at the 
moment of the elevation of the Host. The choir or 
chancel, with the high altar, was splendidly illumin- 
ated. The high -priest and his assistants were before 
the altar in their most magnificent robes. Twelve 
youths from the College of the Propaganda Fide formed 
two lines connecting the corners or horns of the altar 
with the rails of the chancel. They were clothed en- 
tirety from head to foot in scarlet, and held gigantic 
candles of wax in their hands. Those candles were 
about five feet long, and not less than five or six inches 
in circumference ; and as the priest proceeded with 
the prayer of consecration, they all knelt still and mo- 
tionless as marble statues ; and as the priest elevated 
the Host, they all gracefully drooped their heads, and 
slowly leaned forward their kneeling bodies till they 
almost touched the ground, and bent their krge can- 
dles all at the same instant, and with the most prac- 
ticed regularity, till every candle seemed to bow in 



148 MORNINGS AMONG 

unison like things of life, in devout adoration to the 
present and visible divinity. As the eye wandered 
at this moment from our little gallery, whence we could 
view the whole space of the church — as it ranged from 
the splendid illumination of the high altar, and rested 
on the officiating priest in robes of white silk, damasked 
with the richest foliage of gold, and then fell upon the 
twelve youths in scarlet, bowing gracefully to the earth 
with their gigantic candles, and then fell upon the aged 
pontiff, the claimant as vicar of Christ and anointed 
head of the Church on earth, and then looked on the 
long array of cardinals, those anointed princes of the 
Church, robed entirely in scarlet, and then strayed 
along the congregation, of which the ladies were cloth- 
ed in black and veiled, and the men were mostly in 
the same color, while the Swiss guards were arranged 
among them, relieving the mass of black costume with 
the brilliant scarlet and yellow of their peculiar and 
antique uniform — as our eyes wandered over all this 
scene in this magnificent and noble church, with its 
antique marbles and costly decorations, and its vaulted 
roof was filled with the sweetest and most beaute^is 
music, we felt that we had never witnessed any thing 
at Rome, in the way of a religious fete, so perfect in 
its arrangements, so picturesque in its appearance, and 
in such good taste and perfect keeping in all its ac- 
companiments. It was the perfection of a religious 
spectacle, and exhibited the good taste and the world- 
ly wisdom of the order of the Jesuits. 

We had great reason to thank some members of 
the order for their arrangements in our favor. The 
only persons similarly favored on this occasion were 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 149 

an Italian princess and her companion, who alone 
shared with us the privacy and the advantage of this 
little gallery. Whatever were their motives for this 
kindness — and, in truth, they were scarcely conceal- 
ed, seeing that the cardinal vicar had offered a mass 
with the intention to move God to facilitate our con- 
version — it showed a nice disposition on their part, 
and gave to us on this, as on some other occasions, in- 
creased facilities for observation. We thanked the 
professor, as the courtesy and kindness of some of his 
friends of the order deserved at our hands. 

My wife expressed her thanks in better terms than 
I could command, at the same time giving lively ut- 
terance to the gratification derived from the ceremony 
as a beautiful spectacle, and saying that its beauty 
was such, and that there was so much of the pictur- 
esque in the coup (P&il, that, if transferred to can- 
vas, it would make a most attractive picture ; that 
there was exceeding beauty as well as solemnity in it. 

He observed, in return, that it certainly was a 
beautiful and most charming sight to any one, but 
that it was much more so to those who, like himself, 
viewed the pope and the assembled cardinals as the 
head and representatives of the Catholic Church- — the 
whole Church of God, and who looked on the beauti- 
ful spectacle as the act of the Church of Jesus Christ 
singing their Te Deum in praise and thankfulness for 
all the mercies and goodness they had received during 
the departing year. 

We said that we could quite understand the feel- 
ing in which he had viewed it, and which he had so 
appropriately expressed, and that we fully appreqia- 



150 MORNINGS AMONG 

ted that feeling, especially as we had understood that 
such was the nature and object of the ceremonial, as 
designed by those who had taken part in the specta- 
cle. However we might differ from him as to the 
details of the ceremonial or ritual portion of the spec- 
tacle, we were sure to agree with him as to the Chris- 
tian duty and privilege of public thanksgiving for mer- 
cies received. If we could not agree with him in the 
details, we could certainly agree with him in the spirit 
of the act. 

Our conversation then turned to my previous meet- 
ing with our mutual friend, the reverend Signor 
. I stated that he had given me much use- 
ful and important information, of which previously I 
was not in possession ; that, in reference to the wor- 
ship of the Virgin Mary, he had stated matters of 
considerable interest; and that we had a long and 
deeply interesting conversation on the all-important 
subject of infallibility — on the necessity for its exist- 
ence, and on the place <or seat of its existence ; and 
that, supposing infallibility to exist either in a coun- 
cil or in a pope, I was disposed to go with him in 
thinking that, if it existed in either, the weight of ar- 
gument seemed to preponderate in favor of the pope. 

He was much pleased at this admission on my part, 
and expressed himself as if he had understood me to 
state absolutely my belief in the existence of infalli- 
bility in the pope. He said I had admitted that the 
preponderance of argument was with that opinion. 

I reminded him that my observations were only on 
the supposition that such infallibility did really exist 
in either a council or a pope, but that the reverend 



THE JESUITS Af ROME. 151 

Signor had by no means satisfied me that it 

really existed in either the one or the other. But I 
could freely say that, assuming it to exist in either 
a council or a pope, my judgment was in favor of 
the pope ; and my reason was, that all parties on this 
particular point were fond of adverting to the words 
of our Lord to Peter, " Thou art Peter, and upon this 
rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell 
shall not prevail against it." All those in the Church 
of Rome who claimed infallibility for that Church ap- 
peared to base it on these words, and on the words 
11 Feed my sheep" and " Feed my lambs," which seem 
spoken to Peter, and to have connection with Peter ; 
and therefore they appeared to me to prove the infal- 
libility of the popes, as successors of Peter, much more 
naturally than the infallibility of councils, which are 
not in any way connected with these words. I said 
that I could not adopt the Roman Catholic interpret- 
ation of the passage concerning the rock, because I 
thought that our Lord meant to convey that He built 
his Church on the fact that He was the Son of God as 
confessed by Peter, and not on Peter at all ; but that, 
on the supposition of the Roman Catholic interpreta- 
tion being correct, namely, that the words referred to 
Peter, I thought that if the words involved infallibil- 
ity, they involved the infallibility of Peter, and his 
successors the popes, rather than the infallibility of 
councils. 

The professor, as a member of the order of Jes- 
uits — for that order hold universally at Rome the 
very loftiest claims and pretensions to infallibility on 
the part of the popes, as contradistinguished from those 



152 MORNINGS AMONG 

who hold that the infallibility belongs to the general 
councils — showed evident pleasure at my statement, 
and he appeared by his sparkling eye and joyous look 
to think that if I was not already a proselyte to his 
Church, I was at least in a fair way for such a re- 
sult, and that it remained for him to conduct me to 
the final goal. He expressed himself as greatly grat- 
ified with my views upon the subject, and with the 
conclusion at which I had arrived. 

I said that the difficulty between the reverend Sig- 
ner and myself arose from his pressing me 

much to join the Church of Rome, to abandon the 
Church of England, and to fling aside all my diffi- 
culties and objections, whether of mind or feeling, 
against the Church of Rome ; to fling them all aside, 
and, no longer doubting, debating, or arguing, to 
throw them on the responsibility of the infallible tri- 
bunal which had infallibly decided them. I added 
that, in reply to this request on the part of our 
friend, I had asked him whether he could tell me, 
supposing infallibility to reside in the pope, how I 
could be enabled to judge with infallible certainty 
when the pope decided ex cathedrct and when he de- 
cided non ex cathedrd, — when he was infallible and 
when fallible. I said that this was necessary, inas- 
much as different popes had issued different and op- 
posing bulls ; that our mutual friend, the reverend 

Signor , had expressed himself as unable to 

explain the matter fully, and had promised that the 
professor himself should explain it to me. 

He replied that the pope was infallible ; that it be- 
longed to him, as the successor of St. Peter, to be the- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. J 53 

head of that Church, which was to be so founded and 
protected that the gates of hell should never prevail 
against it ; that our Lord's promise in these words 
secured that this Church should be infallible ; that 
this favored and privileged Church was the holy and 
Catholic Church of Rome, whose first bishop was St. 
Peter, and whose successive bishops, as the success- 
ors of St. Peter, were the infallible interpreters and 
expounders of her doctrines, the vicars of Christ, and 
the infallible heads of the Church. 

I said, in reply to a great deal that fell from the 
professor upon this point, that the question at issue 

between the reverend Signor and myself was 

not whether the popes were infallible, but how and 
by what means I could discern a fallible decision from 
an infallible one. I reminded the professor that he 
was of course aware that the popes were not always 
— were not at all times and under all circumstances 
infallible ; that Pope Liberius had avowed Arianism, 
and that Pope Honorius was a Monothelite ; and that, 
as popes were not exempt from the worst of heresies, 
as these two examples demonstrated, so the real diffi- 
culty was to find some certain test by which to know 
when a pope was fallible and when he was infallible. 

He answered in a tone and with a manner that 
seemed, as I thought at the moment, to betray a shade 
of annoyance at my pointed allusion to Liberius and 
Honorius. He said, however, that Liberius was act- 
ing under restraint, and that he was not a free agent 
when he avowed the heresy of the Arians, and that, 
therefore, such avowal was not to be regarded as his 
real opinions. He said, also, that Honorius was 

G2 



154 MOENINGS AMONG 

thought too mild and lax in not punishing the Mo-- 
nothelites, and that it was on account of this that he 
was called a Monothelite, and not on account of his 
holding their heresy. He concluded by saying that 
if either of these popes had proceeded to decide any 
thing ex cathedra^ the decision would then have been 
infallible. 

I replied that my reading of the histories of Libe- 
rius and Honorius compelled me to adopt a very dif- 
ferent opinion as to the orthodoxy of these popes ; that 
I was fully convinced that one of them was really an 
Arian, and that the other was as really a Monothe- 
lite ; that I was aware that the order of Jesuits, as 
the supporters of papal infallibility, had advanced the 
statements which the professor had just expressed, in 
order to save, if possible, the infallibility of these two 
popes, but that I felt that they had failed, as all his- 
tory was clearly against them. However, I contin- 
ued, your own view shows that they acted and gave 
their decisions under undue constraint, or under a 
misplaced lenity ; and therefore your own view shows 
that the popes are not at all times and under all cir- 
cumstances infallible. 

This the professor hesitated to acknowledge. It 
was more in his manner than in his matter. He 
merely said that when the pope uttered his decision 
ex cathedrd, there could be no doubt of the infallibil- 
ity of the decision. This at once conducted our con- 
versation to the precise point which I felt most anx- 
ious to open, and I saw that there could be no diffi- 
culty in entering on it, but I desired much to do so 
without any appearance of a controversial spirit on 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I55 

my part. I was anxious to stand in his eyes as one 
looking for information and open to conviction rather 
than as one disposed to controvert and impugn his 
statements, and I was really most desirous of learn- 
ing the very point now before us, as I had never yet 
been able to find any thing on the subject in the writ- 
ings of any divines of any church. It was a subject 
altogether new to me, and I feared that any prelimin- 
ary conversation might awaken suspicions or doubts 
in his mind, which might prevent him being as com- 
municative as my object required ; and now, as on 
many another occasion during these conferences, 1 
felt fully the necessity of turning in secret prayer to 
Him whom I desired to serve, that He might give me 
the power to restrain my naturally controversial tem- 
per, and the wisdom and the spirit to speak as be- 
came me. I felt nervous and diffident of myself, per- 
haps more than I ought, when I found myself under 
circumstances that prevented my speaking as plainly 
and as strongly as I otherwise might, lest I should 
appear as a controversialist rather than as an inquir- 
er, and especially when I felt myself in the presence 
of men whom I had learned to regard, whether right- 
ly or wrongly, as the most able, the most learned, 
and most subtle controversialists of the Church of 
Rome. The result did not always justify my fears, 
but those fears led me to look more frequently for the 
guidance and the wisdom of Him " from whom Com- 
eth down every good and every perfect gift." 

I said that, supposing the pope to be infallible 
whenever he uttered a decision or issued a bull ex ca- 
thedra it was still necessary to know how we were 



156 MORNINGS AMONG 

to ascertain a decision ex cathedrd from a decision 
non ex cathedra ; how, amid the volumes of opposite 
and conflicting bulls of different popes, we were to 
know an infallible bull from a fallible one, or, as per- 
sons in England usually express it, how are we to 
ascertain when a pope is infallible and when he is fal- 
lible ? 

He at once met the difficulty, and said that it was 
of very easy solution. He stated that there were cer- 
tain requisites, certain essentials, which were charac- 
teristic of a bull ex cathedrd, and without which it 
could not be received as ex cathedrd, and that these 
characteristics were very easily ascertained. He add- 
ed, that these requisites or essentials were seven in 
number, and that he feared to weary me by their de- 
tail, but that otherwise he would be happy to entei 
on them. 

I did not fail to express, with all fitting courtesy, 
my wishes that he would continue so interesting a 
detail, and I expressed the obligations I should feel 
for such valuable information, especially as, coming 
from one holding his important position at Rome, it 
could not but possess much of authority in my eyes, 
and would be sure to possess the same in the eyes of 
others. 

He then proceeded to state that there was no real 
difficulty in ascertaining when and under what cir- 
cumstances the decision of the pope was to be receiv- 
ed as infallible ; that there were certain requisites or 
essentials, and that the presence or absence of these 
would be an adequate test by which to ascertain the 
point ; that these requisites or essentials were seven 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I57 

in number, and were all very clear and very easy to 
be found. He then described them in detail. 

I. It was necessary, in the first place, that, before 
composing and issuing the bull, the pope should have 
opened a communication with the bishops of the uni- 
versal Church ; that in such communication he should 
ask their prayers to the Almighty that the Holy 
Spirit might fully and infallibly guide him so as to 
make his . decision the decision of inspiration. He 
added that by thus previously asking the prayers of 
the bishops, he would obtain the prayers of the uni- 
versal Church for Divine assistance before he pro- 
ceeded to form or publish his decision. 

I asked him how, seeing that there was a necessity 
for this previous communication on the part of the pope 
with the bishops, I was to inform myself that this req- 
uisite or essential had really been borne in mind. He 
merely replied that it was very easy to be ascertained, 
and then proceeded to the second particular. 

II. It was necessary, in the second place, that, be- 
fore issuing the bull containing his decision, the pope 
should carefully seek all possible and desirable inform- 
ation touching the special matter which was under 
consideration, and which was to be the subject of his 
decision ; and that he should be specially careful to 
possess himself of all available information from those 
persons who were residing in the district affected by the 
opinion called in question, and who were found faithful 
in that district, that so the pope might have all the req- 
uisite information for an infallible decision from the 
very district in which the opinion on which the decis- 
ion was sought had its origin or its existence, 



158 MORNINGS AMONG 

I asked, in reference to this, how I was to be as- 
sured that the pope was thus rightly and fully inform- 
ed ; that he had sought and obtained the required in- 
formation, and was thus capacitated for proceeding to 
issue the bull. He replied as before, that there was 
not the least difficulty in ascertaining this, and so 
passed on to the third particular. 

III. He said that a further requisite or essential 
was, that the bull should not only be formal, but 
should be authoritative, and should claim to be au- 
thoritative ; that it should be issued not merely as 
the opinion or judgment of the pope, in his mere per- 
sonal capacity, but as the decisive and authoritative 
judgment of one who was the Head of that Church, 
which was the mother and mistress of all churches, 
to whom all Christians owed subjection and allegi- 
ance, and who was the living voice of infallibility, 
and who, as such, had the power and the authority 
to pronounce infallibly the decision required. 

I remarked that this requisite could be easily as- 
certained, as it must necessarily appear on the face of 
the bull, the only difficulty being to obtain a true copy 
of the bull. He then stated the fourth particular. 

IV. It was again necessary that the bull should be 
promulgated universally ; that is, that the bull should 
be addressed to all the bishops of the universal Church, 
in order that through them its decisions might be de- 
livered and made known to all the members or sub- 
jects of the whole Church. The pope was the fount- 
ain-head of all episcopal jurisdiction, so as that there 
can be no episcopal jurisdiction but from the pope ; 
and as episcopacy is the only channel through which 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. J 59 

every grace flows to the Church so it is necessary 
that the bull containing the decision of the pope be 
addressed to all the bishops of the universal Church. 

I observed on this point that the superscription or 
title of the bull would at once show whether this es- 
sential was forthcoming, and I begged the reverend 
professor to proceed. He then passed on to the fifth 
requisite. 

V. He stated that another essential was, that the 
bull should be universally received ; that is, should 
be accepted by all the bishops of the whole Church, 
and accepted by them as an authoritative and infalli- 
ble decision ; that, after promulgation by the pope, it 
should be accepted and promulgated by all the bish- 
ops as authoritative and infallible, or at least should 
be simply accepted by them without formal promul- 
gation, or even tacitly permitted by them without 
opposition, which is held to be a sufficient acceptance 
in a legal sense. 

I said that this was a point very difficult to be as- 
certained. I knew not of any thing more difficult to 
ascertain with satisfaction than whether any given 
bull was received and promulgated, or simply receiv- 
ed without promulgation, or only permitted without 
opposition in any given country. Some are received 
in Spain which are rejected in France ; and some are 
received in France which are rejected in England and 
Ireland ; and some are rejected in all these, and yet 
are said to be accepted in Italy ; and the assertions 
made on all sides upon this fact were so contradictory, 
that I knew nothing so difficult to be ascertained to 
satisfaction. It opens out a prodigious sphere of in- 



1(50 MOitNINGS AMONG 

quiry and disputation. He smiled, and assured me 
there was not the least difficulty, and went on to the 
sixth particular. 

VI. Another characteristic, he said, was of im- 
mense importance — indeed, more absolutely essential 
than any he had as yet named, viz. : The matter or 
question upon which the decision was to be made, and 
which was therefore to be the subject-matter of the 
bull, must be one touching faith or morals ; that is, 
it must concern the purity of faith or the morality of 
actions ; and this necessity arose from the fact that 
faith and morality are the matters upon which infal- 
libility was designed to be exercised, and for the pres- 
ervation of which this infallibility was given to the 
Head of the Church. 

I remarked that this was very reasonable, and that 
I fully acquiesced in it ; but that an opinion prevailed 
very generally in England that the Church of Rome 
had strained " faith" and " morality" to include all 
matters of fact, even matters of history , whenever they 
seemed to bear upon any question of "faith" or " mo- 
rality ;" that this was practically illustrated in the 
celebrated controversy between the Jesuits and the 
Jansenists, where the point at issue was the mere mat- 
ter of fact, whether the opinions condemned by both 
parties were really contained in a specified book. I 
said that a difficulty might arise in prosecuting our 
inquiries as to whether this essential was there. He 
seemed a little annoyed at this allusion ; so I begged he 
would be so kind as to proceed to the seventh particular. 

VII. This was the last of the series. He said it 
was essential, in the last place, that the pope should 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. Jgl 

be free — perfectly free from all exterior influence, so 
as to be under no exterior compulsion or constraint. 
He stated that the bull or decision of Pope Liberius 
possessed the other essentials, but that this one was 
wanting. That pope had acted under compulsion — 
under a fear of his life, and therefore, as he was not 
free, his decision could not be regarded as ex cathedrd. 
That bull, thus issued, was full of error. The pope, 
therefore, must be free from external influence or con- 
straint, in order to his decision being received as in- 
fallible. 

On this I remarked quietly, that it would be very 
difficult for me or for any one in England to ascer- 
tain, to any thing like moral certainty, whether the 
pope at the issuing of any bull was really under ex- 
terior influence or whether he was perfectly free. I 
did not see how it was possible to have certainty on 
such a point. He said as before, that there was no 
real difficulty in this or in any of the tests he had speci- 
fied, and merely added that these several essentials or 
requisites were the tests by which any bull was to be 
tried. If they existed, then the bull was ex cathedra, 
and was to be received as infallible ; but if any of 
them were wanting, then the bull was not ex cathedrd,, 
and could not be recognized otherwise than as fallible. 

I felt exceedingly interested in all this detail. It 
was the first time I had ever heard of any means by 
which to test the existence of infallibility. 

Hitherto various bulls and decrees had frequently 
been cited, and often one was asserted to be infallible 
and authoritative, and another fallible and rejected. 
One pope, with his decisions, was urged on one side, 



102 MORNINGS AMONG 

i 

and another pope, with his bulls, was cited on the op- 
posite ; and between conflicting bulls and opposite de- 
cisions, and one bull rescinding a former one, and one 
decision reversing a preceding one — amid all this con- 
flict and confusion, I had never seen, or read, or heard 
of any means by which I could learn when a pope was 
fallible and when he was infallible. I therefore felt 
considerably interested in the details of the reverend 
professor of Canon Law, and thanked him warmly for 
the information he had imparted to me. I asked, how- 
ever, several questions, anxiously avoiding the appear- 
ance of unnecessary caviling or eaptiousness, and put- 
ting them with the manner of one who rather sought 
further information. My questions referred to the dif- 
ficulty which persons like myself, resident in England, 
would experience before they could ascertain whether 
the pope had asked for the prayers of the universal 
Church — whether he had sought and obtained the req- 
uisite information — whether his bull was really re- 
ceived and promulgated universally, &c. ; and I sug- 
gested that it was quite possible that other persons in 
England, simple and unlearned men, unacquainted 
with such subjects, and wholly unable to obtain in- 
formation on them, might feel these inquiries not only 
difficult, but absolutely impossible, and in any case 
altogether uncertain and unsatisfactory. I suggested, 
also, yet farther, that if there was difficulty in ascer- 
taining all these minute particulars in reference to any 
bull that might be issued at the present day, the dif- 
ficulty must be enhanced a thousand-fold when the in- 
quiry concerned some bull that had been issued some 
centuries ago. It becomes not only a moral, but even 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 163 

an absolute impossibility, for ordinary men to carry 
out the inquiry to any satisfactory result. 

He replied, that all that was necessary for any man 
in such cases was to go to his bishop — ask the bishop 
respecting the bull in question — and the bishop would 
inform him whether it was ex cathedrd, or otherwise. 
Nothing could be easier. 

T said that though certainly nothing could be easier 
than such a course, yet I apprehended that nothing 
could be more unsatisfactory to an English mind. It 
proposed to leave the whole question of the fallibility 
or infallibility of any given decision to the word of a 
bishop, who was himself fallible, and might be mis- 
taken both as to the fact and as to the meaning of the 
bull. It was not usual in England — it did not suit 
the character of the English mind, to refer the de- 
cision of such historical facts as the pope's freedom 
from influence — the reception of his bulls, &c, to the 
mere opinion of a bishop. Men there would be very 
apt to think themselves quite as good judges as to the 
matter of fact. 

He said that the bishop was the legitimate chan- 
nel for all communications from the pope as the Head 
of the Church and Vicar of Christ ; and all doubts 
would at once be removed from the minds of humble 
and sincere men if they referred it to the bishop. 

I replied that it would suggest itself to most minds 
that such a course was merely placing all their faith 
and hope of salvation on the word of a bishop — a man 
like themselves, and admitted to be fallible. And I 
added, that from my knowledge of the English mind 
and habit of thinking, men in England — -men of com- 



104 MORNINGS AMONG 

mon sense and ordinary judgment, in most things 
would prefer turning to the Holy Scriptures and judg- 
ing for themselves. It would be a most difficult thing 
to alter their habit in this particular. They would 
prefer comparing the bull with the Holy Scriptures, 
and thus learning, not the opinion of the bishop, who 
was but a man, but the judgment of God in his own 
word, for so they habitually regarded the Holy Scrip- 
tures. ~ 

He laughed at me for this, and said that an appeal 
to the Scriptures was absurd and impossible. It 
might all be very well comparatively for men like 
himself and me, who were well read and well versed 
in sacred literature, but it was quite otherwise with 
men in general, and especially with humble and illit- 
erate or ignorant men — in fact, with the great mass 
of mankind ; for, he argued with a tone of great con- 
fidence, his whole face lighted up with the expression 
of conscious triumph, the Holy Scriptures are a vol- 
ume that requires many preliminary inquiries before 
it can be received. In the first place, it will be nec- 
essary for the man to ascertain the authenticity of 
every separate book, or portion of tire volume. In 
the next place, it will be necessary for him to prove 
the divine inspiration of every part of it. In the third 
place, the book is written in dead languages, and the 
man must know how to understand them, or have 
them translated. In the fourth place, it is a volume 
that has given rise to different meanings or interpre- 
tations, and the man should be able to judge upon 
these. All these, he argued, are preliminary inqui- 
ries, which are absolutely necessary to be made ; and 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. jg5 

as iht fiOoi and ignorant man, the ordinary man, is 
incapable of making them and judging on them, so 
the Holy Scriptures can never be a fitting volume for 
such a man to appeal to in matters of religion. 

At this point of our conversation, where he seemed 
most confident and apparently conscious of a triumph 
over me, as if he thought no answer could be return- 
ed to his argument, I felt that he had given me a 
prodigious advantage, of which he was wholly una- 
ware. It was the very position in which I had wish- 
ed to place him, and I could not have led him into a 
line of argument more suited to my purpose. I felt 
in my soul that the Lord had delivered him into my 
hands, and could not but render my thanksgiving in 
secret to Him who gave me the opportunity of deal- 
ing effectually with this matter ; and I inwardly pray- 
ed that I might be cool and collected, and effective in 
my reply. I hoped most fervently that it might have 
some effect upon his mini 

I began by stating that, while my own opinion on 
the point was a matter of unimportance, yet I appre- 
hended his method of argument would be met in En- 
gland in a very effective way — at least in such a way 
as I should be unable to answer, unless he informed 
me further than he had as yet done. I said that the 
most ordinary and common-place men in England 
would say, that if they forsook the volume of the 
Holy Scriptures for the volume of the papal bulls — 
that if they exchanged the Bible for the Bullarium, 
they could gain no advantage thereby ; for if, as he 
had said, there was a necessity for a man to ascertain 
the authenticity of each book in the Holy Scriptures 



1(56 MORNINGS AMONG 

before he could avail himself of it, then it was no less 
true that it was equally necessary for a man to as- 
certain the much-questioned authenticity of each bull 
in the Bullarium ; that if, as he had alleged, the man 
must be carefully informed by study on the inspira- 
tion of the sacred volume before receiving it as his 
Divine teacher, there will exist a similar necessity for 
his being informed by study on the disputed infalli- 
bility of the papal Bullarium before receiving it as his 
infallible instructor ; that if, as he had averred, the 
Holy Scriptures were written in the dead languages, 
and a man must learn to translate them before using 
them, the very same may be averred against the pa- 
pal bulls, which also are all written in a dead lan- 
guage, and a man must learn to translate them be- 
fore appealing to them ; that if, as he had argued, 
the Holy Scriptures have been variously interpreted 
by various men, and all this variety must be resolved 
by every man before he makes the sacred volume his 
guide, it might in like manner be argued that the pa- 
pal bulls have been variously explained, some receiv- 
ed and some rejected by a vast variety of persons, and 
men must be able to decide on all these varying in- 
terpretations of bulls before accepting them as an in- 
fallible guide ; in short, it would be argued — fairly 
argued, by men of no pretension to any thing but the 
possession of common sense, that every objection he 
urged against the volume of the Holy Scriptures was 
liable to be urged against the volume of the papal 
bulls. They were written in a dead language. They 
were the subject of various interpretations. They 
were the source of endless controversies. Their num- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. \ (37 

ber and names were doubtful. Their title to infalli- 
oility was questioned. All men disputed as to which 
was fallible and which infallible. Some bulls were 
directly contradictory of others ; some actually and 
by name were condemnatory of others ; some were 
admitted on all hands to be erroneous and heretical ; 
and the whole combined constituted a series of vol- 
umes almost as extended as a library, and therefore 
wholly inaccessible to the masses of a Christian pop- 
ulation. They could never become the guide of a 
Christian people, and to this day have never yet been 
translated into the language of any Christian Church ; 
while the Holy Scriptures, on the other hand, were 
universally translated, were small in size, convenient 
for reference, and incomparably more easy to be read, 
studied, and understood than the endless intricacies 
and scholastic niceties of the Bullarium. I said that 
men in England would argue thus, and would feel 
that they should lose rather than gain by exchanging 
their Bible for the Bullarium — the Holy Scriptures 
for the papal bulls. 

I perceived that the countenance of the reverend 
professor was undergoing a change. It betrayed im- 
patience and irritation. He looked rather angrily 
upon me ; but I was resolved to persevere, though in 
terms and in manner as kindly as possible, speaking 
as if I was stating the probable objections of others 
rather than my own. I transferred the argument 
from myself to others, and expressed myself as inquir- 
ing how I should be able to answer such objections 
if advanced by others. 

I therefore suggested that his argument on the sub- 



268 MORNINGS AMONG 

ject of the papal bulls — that his seven requisites or 
essentials by which a bull is to be tested before it is 
recognized as ex cathedrd, or infallible, seemed liable 
to the objection that few — very few men indeed could 
possibly ascertain the existence of these tests. With 
all the learning of the reverend professor himself, and 
with what little reading I possessed myself, I yet fear- 
ed that insuperable difficulties would lie in our way ; 
and how much more fairly might a simple mechanic 
or peasant in England object that he knew nothing, 
and could know nothing, about the Bullarium, with 
its twenty or thirty folio volumes of scholastic mat- 
ter in the Latin language ; that he could never ascer- 
tain whether these seven requisites or essentials were 
present or absent ; that it would be impossible for him 
to learn satisfactorily whether Pope Boniface, or Pope 
Hildebrand, or Pope Gregory, before issuing any bull, 
had sought the prayers of the universal Church ; that 
it would be hopeless for him to attempt to ascertain 
whether they had sought and obtained all necessary 
information in the districts supposed to be most affect- 
ed by the question under consideration ; that no effort 
that could be made could assure him of the universal 
acceptance or promulgation of the bull on the part of 
all the bishops of the universal Church. Thus an 
unlettered man in England might fairly argue that, 
if it were necessary to enter on all these inquiries, 
cumbrous, difficult, and impossible as they were, be- 
fore he could be assured of the legality and infallibil- 
ity of each bull, there could then be no possibility of 
his getting even one step toward infallibility ; and 
such a man seemed to me able to object with much 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I59 

force, that if he was asked to abandon his Protestant 
principles and to embrace Roman views — to exchange 
his faith in the Holy Scriptures for a faith in the pa- 
pal bulls — to build his confidence and hope no longer 
on the inspiration of the Bible, but on the infallibil- 
ity of the Bullarium, it was only involving himself 
in a series of questions which he could never solve, 
and encumbering himself unnecessarily with all the 
difficulties of these seven tests — all the subtleties in- 
volved in the question of infallibility — all the dis- 
putes as to whether that infallibility existed in the 
popes or in the councils ; in short, in a most cum- 
brous and difficult system ; when, remaining in the 
principles of Protestantism, he had the Bible — the 
word of God — in his hands — a volume of easy access 
— a volume with whose language he was familiar 
from childhood — a volume that required practically 
no extent of human learning to understand for all 
practical purposes in this life ; in short, a facile and 
convenient rule of life and faith, which, as being in- 
spired of God, was necessarily infallible. I suggest- 
ed that any simple and unlettered man in England 
might so argue, and the argument seemed to me to 
involve a powerful objection — one that required an 
answer ; and I asked the professor whether he could 
supply me with such an answer. 

The whole manner of my reverend friend exhibited 
his sense of the difficulty. He seemed to me to feel 
that his argument recoiled on himself; not having 
perceived that, while he had imagined his seven tests 
were overpowering my scruples, they were really so 
many stumbling-blocks in the way. It had not, I 

H 



170 MORNINGS AMONG 

must confess, a favorable impression on his manner, 
as he seemed to feel irritation at being foiled rather 
than disposed to give the argument due weight in his 
own mind. Nor would I have pressed it so far, only 
that I felt it my duty to lay the difficulty fairly and 
fully before him, that it might, by that influence 
which is not the less potent because it is unseen, 
work its own way in his mind when time and oppor- 
tunity might afford it further consideration. 

He only said, in reply, that he thought all these 
difficulties would be removed by referring to the bish- 
op, whose decision should be final. He would at once 
say which bulls were fallible and which infallible, or, 
rather, which were ex cathedrd and which non ex ca- 
thedra. It appertained to the office of the bishop to 
do so. 

I said it might, and very probably would be object- 
ed by some minds to this, that the bishops of France 
gave an answer different from the bishops of Italy on 
these bulls ; that on one side of the Alps certain bulls 
are pronounced infallible, which at the other side of 
the same Alps are held to be fallible, and therefore 
that a reference to the bishop could not be sufficient 
to satisfy some thinking men ; at least, I could not 
answer for the people of Italy, but certainly such a 
system could never satisfy the thinking and judging 
people of England. They habitually inquired and 
judged for themselves, and never would leave such 
a matter of fact to the decision of the bishop. 

He argued that I ought not to refer to the differ- 
ence of the French and Italian bishops on the subject 
of infallibility ; that it was a very favorite system of 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 17] 

arguing among the English writers, but that it was 
really of no importance, for the Church was one — 
was at unity, and that I should find that the religion 
of France was identical with the religion of Italy ; so 
that, however differing on the point of infallibility, 
they were one and united on every thing else. 

I said that I apprehended we could not agree on 
that point, as I thought there were other particulars 
on which the difference was equally marked. 

Our conversation soon took another turn. I felt 
that enough had been said by me, and that the sub- 
ject — the special subject of our conference — was suf- 
ficiently opened. I therefore allowed him to lead 
away to other and more general topics. As my wife 
was almost always present, there was great facility 
for this whenever it was desirable. We were all soon 
conversing on a variety of points connected with the 
external aspect and form of religion at Rome ; and 
the professor and we parted with expressions of mu- 
tual gratification in forming an acquaintance which 
promised to be profitable and improving, as connected 
with our eternal interests. 



172 MOENINGS AMONG 



CHAPTER VII. 

Opinions entertained at Rome respecting the Movement in the Angli- 
can Church — The Bishop of Exeter and others at Oxford — Caution 
against Romans intermeddling with the Church of England — Separa- 
tion of the Temporal from the Spiritual Power of the Popes — Argu- 
ment derived from the Success of the Missions of the Church of Rome 
— An Indian Tribe converted — Their holy Lives — Wonderful Mira- 
cle — Credulity prevalent at Rome — Inconsistency between two Doc- 
trines of that Church — Transubstantiation and the Mass — The Im- 
maculate Conception — Human Merit — Indulgences. 

The movement among certain gentlemen at Ox- 
ford furnished a frequent subject of conversation among 
my reverend friends of the order of Jesus. It was ev- 
idently a source of the largest anticipation, and there 
were moments when nothing seemed too extravagant 
in the way of hope as a result from it. It was gen- 
erally looked on as the beginning of the conversion of 
England, and many an eye, brightened and many a 
cheek flushed in triumphant expectation of her re- 
turn to the arms of Rome. The remarkable letter 
or rescript of the cardinal-vicar appointing a Novena, 
that is, a nine days' service, and promising a plenary 
indulgence, that is, a complete exemption from pur- 
gatory, and immediate admission into paradise after 
death, to all who took part in this Novena, praying 
for the extirpation of heresy, the exaltation of the 
Church, and the conversion of England to the Church 
of Rome — this remarkable document had not yet been 
issued ; but hopes were high, conversations were fre- 
quent, and confidence was unbounded on the subject, 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



173 



and masses were offered for the conversion of individ- 
uals for whom a peculiar interest was felt. 

The volume by Mr. Ward on the ideal of a Church, 
which had been published in England a short time 
before, had found entrance into Rome. It was sent 
to me by one of my reverend friends of the Collegio 
Romano ; and when he came shortly afterward, his 
mind seemed full of the subject of the Anglican 
Church — its present state and its future destinies. 
We were not likely to agree on such a subject. As 
usual, his companion remained silent, and took no 
part in the conversation. 

He expressed himself in strong terms against the 
Anglican bishops for having set themselves against the 
principles and practices proposed to be introduced by 
the gentlemen at Oxford. He stated that they had 
shown their opposition ; and although he regarded 
their opposition as likely to fail in the end, yet they 
had sufficiently shown their feeling, and proved that 
nothing was to be expected from them. He selected, 
however, and excepted the Bishop of Exeter ; and it 
seemed as if no language of hatred and scorn com- 
bined could be too strong to express his feelings re- 
specting him. He said, in a rather exaggerating 
way, that the main body of the most learned and in- 
fluential of the heads of houses, professors, and tutors 
at Oxford were sufficiently well disposed to a union 
with Rome ; that the vast portion of the rural clergy 
were inclined to glide over in the same direction ; that 
the great majority of the younger clergy, fresh from 
the university, were over-zealous in the matter, al- 
most requiring restraint ; that manv of the aristocra 



174 MORNINGS AMONG 

cy and gentry, educated at the universities, were pre- 
pared and wishing for the change ; and that, while 
all minds were thus directed to a great and grand ob- 
ject, one worthy of the thoughts of a whole people — 
while the mind of England, and England's Church, 
was forsaking the principles and ideas of centuries, 
and now turning to tradition and to the fathers — 
while the whole learning, and feeling, and yearning, 
and hope of the clergy of the Anglican Church was 
toward a return to the bosom of their Holy mother 
the Church of Rome, and sighing for Catholic unity, 
this high and holy feeling, this onward and noble feel- 
ing, was marred and turned aside by the littleness of 
the Bishop of Exeter. That bishop, he stated, had 
raised a question about black gowns and white sur- 
plices — a question of such paltry insignificance and 
contemptible littleness — and by evoking a host of en- 
emies, and raising a hurricane of opposition, turned 
all minds from the right direction, from the grand 
subject, from the great object of true religion, and the 
right Church, and unity, and tradition, and all that 
was truly precious, and likely to effect a glorious work, 
and turned all minds to such anile trifling as a dis- 
pute about gowns and surplices. He had promised 
much, and no doubt intended much ; but by his little- 
ness, and by his energy and talent in turning little 
things into great things, he had strengthened the 
hands of his opponents, and utterly marred for a time 
the very work in which he had himself been one of 
the most active and useful laborers. A noble work 
was thus provokingly marred by the imprudence and 
indiscretion of one of its partisans, and no language 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I75 

was too strong to apply to him. He dealt sharply, 
too, with the Bishop of London. 

All this, and much more of the same nature, fell 
from my reverend friend respecting the Bishop of Ex- 
eter. He showed considerable heat, which seemed to 
me to argue that the Jesuits at Rome were much an- 
noyed and disappointed at seeing the turn that things 
were taking in England. It was not for me to under- 
take any defense of either the Bishop of Exeter or 
the Bishop of London. 

My friend soon turned to Mr. Newman and Dr. 
Pusey, and stated that he felt they were doing a glo- 
rious work in impregnating the mind of the students 
of the university, and especially the young clergy, 
with Catholic principles. It was a subject of unmix- 
ed thankfulness that such doctrines should be so open- 
ly avowed and taught in the very university of the 
Anglican Church, after three centuries of suppression 
and silence ; and it was impossible that the move- 
ment — the impetus which it gave to the progress of 
Catholic truth, could fail to end in the final triumph 
of the Church of Rome. It might be checked or turn- 
ed aside for a short time, but must soon return to its 
main channel, and move on irresistibly to its great 
destiny. It was impossible that Mr. Newman, Dr. 
Pusey, Mr. Ward, and other leaders could remain 
where they were. They had gone so far that they 
must necessarily go further, and when they entered 
the Church of Rome they would be followed by the 
greater part of the Anglican Church. They could 
not honestly remain as they were.^ 

* At the time of this conversation, Mr. Ward and Mr. Newman had 
not openly joined the Chnrch of Rome. 



176 MORNINGS AMONG 

I said that I quite felt with him that these persons 
could not honestly remain in the Church of England ; 
and that they were bound, holding the principles which 
they professed, to join the Church of Rome ; that if I 
myself held their principles, I should do so ; but that 
many persons felt a difficulty in justifying themselves 
to their own consciences in leaving the Church of their 
own accord, without being compelled to do so by the 
authorities of the Church ; and it was possible some 
of these persons might be influenced to remain from 
this feeling. 

He said that such a feeling was very excusable where 
there was not a decided difference of opinion and prin- 
ciple on essentials ; but there was a line somewhere. 
As long as they kept within that line, they might in- 
deed remain ; but when once they had gone beyond 
it — when once they renouncd or abandoned the essen- 
tial principles of one Church, and adopted the essen- 
tial principles of the other, then to remain was not 
consistent, not honest, and this was the case of these 
persons. He said they had passed the line, and he 
should be greatly disappointed if any of them remain- 
ed as they were. It would not be honest, or becom- 
ing the honesty of Christian men, to remain in the 
Church of England. 

I gave my full assent to this, adding that I was 
sure he would not be disappointed, and that all these 
gentlemen would ultimately join the Church of Rome. 

He then panegyrized in very glowing terms the con- 
duct and talent of Mr. Ward, and spoke in the most 
triumphant tone of the approaching fall of the Church 
of England ; that it was an event for which God was 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



177 



to be thanked, especially as it seemed to be His doing 
— as being a movement which sprung up spontane- 
ously in the heart of the Anglican Church herself. It 
did not originate with Rome, though of course she 
watched it anxiously, and assisted it to the utmost of 
her power ; and, he added, smiling expressively, she has 
power, and we shall soon see England with us again. 

I said, in return, that they would be wise to let En- 
gland alone, and in no way to intermeddle with her 
State or her Church. It might possibly lead to En- 
gland intermeddling with Rome. 

He asked me what I meant. 

I replied, that the people of England did hot like to 
be interfered with, and might be disposed to resent it. 
I then said boldly to him that I was fully aware that 
a large portion of the people of the Roman states were 
anxious to separate the ecclesiastical authority of the 
pope from the civil sovereignty ; that they desired to 
leave the pope as the spiritual head of the Catholic 
Church, but, as far as I could learn their sentiments, 
they were desirous to divest him of his temporal sov- 
ereignty ; that they had expressed themselves in very 
many instances, speaking freely to me as a stranger 
and as an Englishman loving free institutions, as anx- 
ious that the pope should be reduced simply to the 
state of a Christian bishop, ruling the Church as such, 
but by no means ruling the state as a temporal sov- 
ereign ; that this feeling seemed to me so general, that 
all that was required was that some bold man should 
lift the standard of revolution, and that the people 
would follow. 

He smiled, and asked how this, supposing it to be 
H 2 



178 MORNINGS AMONG 

true, could affect the question as concerning the An- 
glican Church. 

I answered, that if Rome interfered too much with 
the Church in England, perhaps England might in- 
terfere a little with the Church at Rome ; that there 
was a powerful sentiment, an enthusiastic feeling for 
Protestantism, and an unhesitating hatred of Roman- 
ism, among a large portion of the people of England ; 
and if these persons were once roused, they might 
evoke public feeling, subscribe large funds, influence 
the government, and encourage those Italians, and es- 
pecially those Romans who desired to raise the stand- 
ard of revolution at Rome, and thus separate the tem- 
poral from the spiritual power of the pope. It were 
wise, therefore, not to intermeddle too much with the 
Church of England. 

This elicited a display of irritation and anger for 
which I was scarcely prepared. I felt, however, that 
I was speaking on good authority, as the feeling to 
which I referred was general among some of the most 
respectable of the citizens of Rome ; that it was shared 
by some of the most influential persons, and by a very 
large portion of the tradesmen ; that they all spoke 
with especial dislike and hatred of the order of Jesu- 
its, saying that, as sure as any Jesuit was permitted 
to enter any house, there was as surely destined to fol- 
low in his wake a series of family disputes, so as that 
there could be no peace in any family into which they 
were admitted; that, in consequence of this, there was 
a growing feeling at Rome against not only the order 
of Jesuits, but against the monks of every other order ; 
that this feeling was extending itself rapidly against 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. ]79 

all ecclesiastical government, and especially against 
ecclesiastics holding government appointments, and 
conducting the temporal and civil affairs of the state ; 
that the whole body of the laity, excluded as they were 
from all important, influential, and lucrative offices, 
were dissatisfied with such exclusion, and were pre- 
disposed to any revolution which, by excluding eccle- 
siastics, and confining them to spiritual matters, might 
lay open all the civil offices of the state to the fair and 
honorable ambition of the laity. Feeling all this, and 
knowing that my reverend friend must be well aware 
of it, I could not be much surprised that he felt an- 
gered or irritated at the use which I made of it, name- 
ly, as a warning to him and his friends among the 
Jesuits not to interfere too much in the affairs of the 
Church or State of England. 

I felt that a change in the subject of our conversa- 
tion was desirable, as there was neither information 
nor profit to be derived from the political aspect of 
Rome, nor from the opinions entertained at Rome re- 
specting the state of the Church of England ; and 
therefore, when he said, in a tone of triumph, that the 
Church of England must soon fall utterly to ruin and 
pass away forever, or unite herself to the Church of 
Rome, I was glad of the opportunity it afforded for 
changing the subject of conversation. It led to some 
statements among the most remarkable I had yet heard. 

In arguing for the Church of Rome and against the 
Church of England, he stated that Providence was 
every day setting the seal of testimony to the former 
and withholding it from the latter. He said that this 
was peculiarly visible in the department of missions ; 



180 MORNINGS AMONG 

for that, while the missionary labors of the Church of 
England, notwithstanding the commanding influence 
and wealth of England, were without any success that 
deserved the name, the preaching of the missionaries 
of the Church of Rome had met with the most won- 
derful successes ; that the multitudes of heathen who 
were converted of late years were beyond expression ; 
and that, from every quarter of the globe, the informa- 
tion received was of the same happy and triumphant 
character. The great God of Christianity was mani- 
festing his advocacy of His own cause by giving the 
most ample success to the missionary labors of His own 
Church ; and this, he continued, was an evidence and 
proof of His favor and love to the Church of Rome, 
which elevated her above the Church of England, and 
was so abundant that ere long the whole heathen 
world must bow to the truth and embrace the Church 
of Rome. 

I replied that I had not much faith in the state- 
ments sometimes put forth on the subject of missions 
I mentioned the narrative of a friend of my own, who 
was witness to the conversion of a whole tribe of 
American Indians. He told me the whole tribe march- 
ed down to a river, and that the Roman Catholic priest, 
without a word of instruction, sprinkled water on every 
one in the usual form ; and that he then hung a little 
cross by a string around the neck of each, and telling 
them they were now Christians, he left them. My 
friend told me that the Indians departed precisely as 
they came — heard no preaching — received no instruc- 
tion — exhibited no sign of Christianity — made no pro- 
fession of any faith, and departed precisely as they 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. jgj 

came, as naked, as savage, as wild, and as ignorant 
and heathen, with this only difference, that each had 
a little cross suspended around his neck ! I added 
that I fully believed the statement of my informant, 
who would not deceive me, and that I did not see how 
the Church of Rome could triumph much in such al- 
leged conversions. 

His answer to this was very striking, as showing 
a degree of credulity which I could never have antici- 
pated. 

He said that I was altogether mistaken in doubt- 
ing the reality of these conversions ; that it was in 
this that the interposition of God was so clearly mani- 
fested ; that those conversions partook very much of 
the miraculous in their nature — at least, could not be 
accounted for, often, unless on the principle of a di- 
vine miracle. It was the great and good God setting 
his seal to the work of his own Church. These very 
Indians, heathen and savage as they had been, were 
real converts, and the proofs of the reality of their con- 
version are undoubted and convincing ; so much so, 
that after the missionary had left them — after he had 
remained absent from them for two years — after they 
had been left without further instruction of any kind 
beyond the memory of his teaching — after he returned 
to his missionary station at the close of these two 
years, and was again among these very Indians, he, 
of course, as was his duty, required of them to come 
to confession — to confess their sins that they might 
receive absolution ; he was agreeably surprised, and 
indeed overjoyed, to find that not one of them had any 
sins to confess ! My friend went on to explain thsi 



182 MORNINGS AMONG 

there was no matter for the sacrament of penance, as 
during these two years the Indians lived such con- 
verted lives, such holy and Christian lives, that there 
was not one among them who had committed a single 
sin, and therefore had no sin to confess, and the mis- 
sionary priest was unable to confer absolution, inas- 
much as there was no matter for the sacrament ! 

I could not but be surprised at such a statement, 
and wondered in my own mind whether my reverend 
friend himself believed it ; and yet there was all the 
look and stamp of earnestness and truthfulness in the 
man. He seemed to believe it fully, and therefore, as 
unwilling to wound his feelings, I merely suggested 
that the Indians having no sin to confess might have 
arisen from their not knowing their sins — from their 
not knowing that those customs, vices, immoralities, 
cruelties, and idolatries which they were constantly 
committing were really sins ; in short, they were so 
ignorant of Christian truth, and so left without re- 
ligious instruction, that they were unconscious of sin, 
and therefore confessed no sin. I said that I could 
not otherwise understand his statement, because the 
best, and wisest, and holiest of Christians that ever 
lived were conscious of sin ; and that, if those Indians 
were really converted, they must have been conscious 
of sin ; and to suppose them otherwise must imply 
that they were wholly unconverted. 

This suggestion he rejected and flung from him at 
once ; and he eagerly added, that the very missionary 
was now at Rome ; that he had just returned from 
America, and was at the Collegio Romano, where he 
had himself heard him narrate the facts ; and as a 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. JQ3 

proof beyond question of the reality of the conversions 
and the holiness of the Indians, he mentioned what he 
called a most wonderful miracle that had occurred 
when the missionary was administering the holy com- 
munion to them. He was holding the host in his 
fingers thus (my friend suiting the action to the word) ; 
and as the poor Indian was too far from him, the mis- 
sionary priest could not place the host in his mouth ; 
the poor, humble, devout Indian knelt so far away 
that the priest could not reach-him, and — here my 
reverend friend lifted his hands in an attitude of awe, 
looked devoutly to heaven, and then earnestly and 
solemnly addressed me — the host flew out of his fin- 
gers, flew over to the poor Indian, and flew into his 
mouth ! " Oh !" he added, in a tone of the most rev- 
erential devotion, " the blessed Lord Jesus so loved 
that poor savage, that he longed to enter into his heart, 
and thus miraculously flew into his mouth ! How 
anxious he was to get into him !" 

I could no longer doubt the sincerity of this priest. 
There was a fervor, an earnestness, a devotion of man- 
ner that showed he fully believed what he thus nar- 
rated ; and the personal character of the man was 
such that I had no right to doubt him after so solemn 
a statement. He narrated it as a miracle wrought 
by God in behalf of the Church of Rome. He men- 
tioned it as illustrating the blessing of God upon the 
missions of that Church. He, believing that the age 
of miracles is not yet passed, but that miracles are 
still constantly working, imagined that his narrative 
would be credited by me. But it only proved to my 
mind that the missionary priest had wickedly invent- 



184 MOUNINGS AMONG 

ed the story to exalt and magnify his own labors, ano? 
was now telling it among his brother Jesuits of the 
Collegio Romano, that such of them as were simple 
and credulous, and superstitious enough to believe i\ 
might spread it through the world as a new testimony 
of God to the Church of Rome. My reverend frienc 
evidently believed it, and expected that I should be 
lieve it. 

I shall never forget this portion of our conversation 
It was a practical confutation of those — and I must 
confess I was myself once among the number — whc 
suppose that the Romish priests are all infidels ; that 
the simple, and superstitious, and ignorant may per- 
haps believe what they are taught, but that the tal- 
ented and educated are infidel as to some of the doc- 
trines which they inculcate. I am fully persuaded 
that, while this may be true of some, it is not true 
of many whose acquaintance I >vas enabled to make 
during my residence at Rome. They were educated, 
learned, astute, and talented men, and yet they be- 
lieved things contrary to all experience, reason, and 
revelation. The reverend Jesuit, who made to me 
the communication respecting these Indians, was one 
of the most polished and educated men at Rome. He 
was conversant with the entire range of European 
literature. He spoke English, German, and French 
with almost the same facility as his native Italian, 
and was as learned and astute as a man might be 
expected to be who was selected for a professorship in 
the principal educational establishment of the order of 
Jesuits at Rome. He fully believed, and expected 
me to believe, his narrative. This certainly is a 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 185 

phase of mind not very intelligible in England ; but 
when it is considered that these men are brought up 
from childhood in certain principles — that they are 
taught to believe implicitly every thing which the 
Church is said to teach — that they never see the Holy 
Scriptures, which might call in question the princi- 
ples which they are thus taught — that believing mir- 
acles are still as constantly wrought as in the days of 
the apostles — -that looking on every doubt in the mind 
as a horrid infidelity to be hated and loathed, as the 
source of every woe here and hereafter — that being 
thus habituated to receive implicitly every thing that 
seems to come in conformity with the Church, their 
minds are in a different train, and act on a different 
principle altogether, and they must not be judged by 
the same rules as might hold among us, whose minds 
are so differently constituted and trained. I am fully 
convinced that in supposing all these men — however 
it may be with some — to be secretly infidels, we do 
them the greatest injustice. I am satisfied that mul- 
titudes among them believe, with the fullest and most 
implicit faith, the dogmas of their Church ; and there- 
fore, instead of regarding them as the hypocrites and 
monsters of deception and wickedness which such a 
supposition implies, I regard them as melancholy ev- 
idences of the fall of human nature, and sad monu- 
ments of the shipwreck of the human judgment, evi- 
dencing to the world that no reach of human intel- 
lect, and no grasp of mental genius, and no range of 
this world's learning, can bring the true and saving 
knowledge of God to the mind or heart of man. The 
record may be a saddening one, but it is true : " The 
world by wisdom knew not God," 



186 MORNINGS AMONG 

It was impossible my reverend friend could fail to 
observe my incredulity, both as to the sinless state 
of the Indian converts and as to the wonderful miracle 
of the consecrated wafer or host. I could not believe 
them, and I felt I ought not to leave him under the 
possible impression that I did believe them. I ex- 
pressed my feeling in the most kindly and courteous 
terms, being very unwilling to give unnecessary pain 
or offense ; but I let him clearly understand that ] 
had read and heard enough of the missions to hold a 
very decided opinion as to the argument often drawn 
from them. I added that I believed the real difference 
between the missionary results of the two churches 
was this, that the Church of Rome was generally sat- 
isfied with an outward conformity, or, rather, an out- 
ward profession, however little the practice might be, 
looking forward to the opportunities which such con- 
formity or profession secured in reference to the ris- 
ing generation, while, on the other hand, the Church 
of England almost universally required the manifest- 
ation of a converted mind and regenerated nature, 
disregarding in a measure all the worldly considera- 
tions of expediency or value of external profession. 
I added yet further, that, under such circumstances, 
I was prepared to expect even greater appearance of 
success under the system of Rome, but, on the other 
hand, far more of reality and spiritual life under the 
system of England. 

After a little further conversation on the subject 
of missions, and the success said to be attendant upon 
them — after he had made some allusions to the suc- 
cess of the Jesuits in China, to which I replied by re- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. jgiy 

ferring to the bull of Pope Ganganelli, condemning 
the compliances of the Jesuits in that empire — after 
this, my friend still urged that the Church of En- 
gland was inclining to her ruin, and that I should be 
obliged ere long to leave her, and that, after all, I 
should be necessitated to join the Church of Rome. 

I said that I was fully convinced in my soul that a 
church which, like that of England, honored the word 
of God, the Holy Scriptures, so as to make them the 
sole rule of faith in things necessary to salvation, and 
which held so much precious truth, would never be 
abandoned by God. He had blessed her hitherto to 
the salvation of millions, and I had no fears for her 
permanence ; but, at all events, I had not seen any 
reason to suppose I could join myself to the Church 
of Rome. She had too frequently erred in things of 
the greatest importance. 

He replied that God promised to be forever with 
his Church ; that his Church was founded on St. Pe- 
ter ; that that church was the Catholic or Roman 
Church ; that by the promise of Christ it was infalli- 
ble ; and that I should find it impossible to prove her 
to have failed in any particular. He went on upon 
this subject at some length, in a way very usual 
among the advocates of the Roman Church, and asked 
me to prove that she had erred in any thing. 

I answered that as he would probably defend as a 
truth any thing I should object as an error, that I did 
not see clearly how I could convince him, unless, in- 
deed, I could prove an absolute contradiction of one 
doctrine to another. I said this with the view of lead- 
ing to this very subject. 



288 MORNINGS AMONG 

He said that that would be an objection worth hear- 
ing, and seemed to challenge me to the proof. 

Fully expecting this, I replied by saying that I 
believed there were some very decided and positive 
contradictions in the system of doctrines received by 
the Church of Rome ; and if it were not drawing too 
much on his patience, I would endeavor to specify an 
instance, and perhaps he might be able to remove the 
apparent inconsistency by explanation. But, I add- 
ed, while such inconsistencies or contradictions re- 
mained unexplained, it was impossible to recognize 
the infallibility of his Church ; and though I had pre- 
sented the difficulty to many eminent men for solu- 
tion, I had never been so fortunate as to find even an 
attempt at explanation. 

I then called his attention to the fact that the sac- 
rifice of the mass is called " an unbloody sacrifice ;" 
that when Protestants object that if the sacrifice of 
the mass be indeed identical with the sacrifice of Christ 
on the cross, then this daily sacrificing of Christ must 
be a source of daily suffering to Christ ; for, as the 
Apostle Paul says, "He was not to offer himself often, 
for then he must have suffered often since the foun- 
dation of the world" — when Protestants object that 
if the sacrifice of the mass be often offered, according 
to the system of the Church of Rome, then the suf- 
ferings of Christ must be often repeated, according to 
the words of the apostle — when Protestants object 
this, it is always answered that there are no suffer- 
ings, because there is only " an unbloody sacrifice," 
and that in the sacrifice of the mass Christ is offered 
only in "an unbloody manner." It is therefore ex- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. jgg 

pressly stated in the canons of the Council of Trent 
that the mass is an " unbloody sacrifice," and all the 
catechisms of the Church of Rome distinctly assert 
that it is " an unbloody offering," and all endeavor to 
obviate the objection of Protestants by saying that 
Christ is offered in the mass in " an unbloody manner." 

He assented to this, stating that such was the doc- 
trine of the mass ; that Christ was offered as a pro- 
pitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead in the 
mass, and that there could be no pain or suffering to 
him, though truly, literally, substantially present in 
the host as the victim, because he was offered in " an 
unbloody manner." It was " an unbloody sacrifice," 
and therefore it gave no pain like that on Calvary ; 
and he asked me where there was any contradiction 
or inconsistency. 

I replied that I had only stated one half my sub- 
ject. The other half remained to be told, which was 
this : that the dogma of transubstantiation, as defined 
by the Council of Trent, and held universally in the 
Church of Rome, taught that the bread and wine of 
the communion were truly, literally, substantially 
changed, so as that their whole substance was chang- 
ed into the substance of " the body, and bloody and 
soul, and divinity" of Jesus Christ. According to 
this doctrine, the substance of wine is annihilated, and 
the substance of blood substituted in its stead, so as 
that all is no longer wine, but bloody truly, literally, 
substantially blood. In the offering, therefore, of this 
there is bloody a bloody offering, and in the sacrifice 
of this there is blood, a bloody sacrifice ; and there is 
no point of doctrine in the whole system of the Church 



190 MORNINGS AMONG 

of Rome on which she usually makes so determined 
a stand as this assertion, that after the words of con- 
secration the elements become flesh and blood, and 
thus the inconsistency or contradiction to which I refer 
is this : her teaching in one moment that in the mass 
the sacrifice is an unbloody one, and in the next moment 
that it is transubstantiated into blood; so that in one 
doctrine all is blood, and in the other all is unbloody ! 

My friend made no attempt at concealing that he 
had never observed this before, but he was silent, as 
if revolving it in his mind. He continued so long 
without replying that I asked him whether he clearly 
understood me, and saw the point which I urged. He 
said fairly that he saw it ; that it charged the Church 
with using the argument both ways and in apposite 
directions, asserting that there was blood, or teaching 
that there .was no -blood, just as suited her purpose. 
He added very honestly, after a long time for consid- 
eration, that he had never heard the difficulty before ; 
that it struck him as very curious ; that he did not 
see just then how to answer it ; but that he would 
make it his business to consult a certain lecturer then 
in their college, and also their professor, to whom 
such questions belonged ; and that, after consulting 
them, he would communicate to me their opinions. 

[When next I had the pleasure of meeting him, it 
was at the Collegio. Romano, where we walked and 
talked a long time together ; but though he stated he 
had consulted the parties referred to, I was unable to 
get any intelligible explanation of the inconsistency 
which I had urged, nor, indeed, have I ever heard it 
explained by any one to whom I have objected it.] 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. jgj 

On reverting to our original point, namely, his 
statement that the Anglican Church was hastening 
to her fall, and that I should be necessitated to em- 
brace the Church of Rome, a variety of topics were 
touched on, and among them the doctrine of the im- 
maculate conception. On this he expressed himself 
as believing that the Virgin Mary, the Prophet Jer- 
emiah, and John the Baptist had all been born with- 
out original sin. 

My wife remarked that she could not believe this, 
for that the Virgin Mary recognized Christ as her 
Savior, which implied herself a sinner ; that the writ- 
ings of the Prophet Jeremiah were full of acknowl- 
edgments of sin ; that the Baptist certainly was with- 
out all claim to so peculiar an exemption ; and she 
was opening the Bible to show the places to which 
she referred. • • 

He said that the doctrine was founded on the words 
of Scripture ; that there could be no question as to 
the immaculate conception of the most Holy Virgin, 
and therefore her freedom from original sin ; and that, 
in reference to Jeremiah and the Baptist, it was ex- 
pressly stated that they were " sanctified from the 
womb," implying that in their original conception in 
the womb they were immaculate, and as such exempt 
from original sin. 

I could not forbear smiling at such a frail founda- 
tion for such a doctrine, and reminded him that the 
word " sanctified," as ordinarily used in Holy Scrip- 
ture, meant being separated to a holy use, being set 
apart from all profane or secular uses, and appropri- 
ated or separated to the holy purposes of God, and 



192 MORNINGS AMONG 

that this was the case of the Baptist. From the 
time of his leaving the womb of his mother, that is, 
from the time of his birth, it pleased God to set him 
apart, and separate him for the holy purpose of being 
the Herald or Forerunner of the Messiah. 

He replied at once that* this was a proof, if proof 
were wanting, that we could never settle our differ- 
ences by referring to the Holy Scriptures, inasmuch 
as we could never agree as to their interpretation. 
He would not, therefore, refer to them, but would 
ask whether it was possible to doubt the miraculous 
and immaculate conception of the most Holy Mary, 
or that she was perfectly sinless — free from all orig- 
inal and actual sin alike. On perceiving that we 
dissented altogether on this point, he continued to say 
that there could be no doubt that she possessed merit 
— that she was meritorious in the sight of God. On 
still perceiving that we dissented from such an opin- 
ion, he continued to say that he did not see how any 
one could deny that there was merit in works, and 
that assuredly there was merit in the sufferings un- 
dergone by the blessed Mary in giving birth to the 
child Jesus. There was no necessity whatever — no 
reason whatever why she should have subjected her- 
self to them, and therefore her having actually under- 
gone such sufferings was meritorious. It must have 
possessed merit in the sight of God. She had some 
claim upon God for it. There are many things, he 
added, which the Church calls counsels, not com- 
mands, and the difference respecting these is, that 
you are under obligation or necessity to perform com- 
mands — you must obey them, or you sin against God ; 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I93 

but you are under no sort of obligation or necessity 
to perform counsels. They are, as it were, an advice 
for increased usefulness or increased holiness over and 
beyond what is necessary for salvation ; and if a man 
perform these, he has merit in the sight of God be- 
cause he has performed them, and thus has made him- 
self more useful and holy than necessary. There was, 
for example, no kind of necessity upon the young 
man in the Gospel, obliging him to give all he pos- 
sessed to the poor, but there was counsel, advice ; 
and he was not bound to take that advice, even though 
given by our Lord himself; but if he had followed 
that advice, then undoubtedly he would have had 
merit with God. 

My wife replied to all this with expressions of sur- 
prise that any one could hold the doctrine of human 
merit ; that if we but knew our own hearts, we could 
not but feel ourselves such poor unworthy creatures, 
such poor miserable sinners, that it seemed impossi- 
ble to arrive at such a height of presumption as to 
imagine we could have merit in the sight of God. 
We never do — we never can do enough for the God 
who has done so much for us ; and how, she asked, 
how is it possible for us to do more than enough ? 
Even after we have done our very utmost — our all, 
we yet are unworthy sinners ; and therefore our Lord 
has expressly said, " After ye have done all, say, We 
are all unprofitable servants ; we have done that 
which it was our duty to do." 

He said that the Church taught that there was a 
merit in some works ; that those works were not nat- 
ural works, but done by the grace of God, and that 

I 



194 MORNINGS AMONG 

God was pleased of his own grace to ascribe merit to 
them. It was in this way the saints had merit with 
God. They had by God's grace been enabled to live 
very holy lives, and to endure many sufferings, and 
to perform many good works. They had been ena- 
bled to do all this only by God's grace, and as all 
this was not necessary to their own salvation, but 
was supplemental or supernumerary, so all this was 
meritorious, and thus gave them an accumulation of 
merit with God. But still there was nothing pre- 
sumptuous in this, as it was from first to last of 
God's grace. 

I said here that I was anxious to understand him 
clearly : I understood him as saying that although the 
merit of works was only a merit ascribed to them of 
the grace of God, and not truly and rightfully belong- 
ing to them, yet that the merit was as effectual as if 
it truly and rightfully belonged to them ; so that a 
man having performed some such work might fairly 
reckon on it and take account of merit for it, and set 
it down against his sins — against the punishment his 
sins deserved. I added that I inferred that this was 
his view from what he had just said of the merits of 
the saints, implying, as I thought, that by such works 
of merit a man might obtain or work out for himself 
more merit than he wanted for his forgiveness and sal- 
vation; in short, a man could be more righteous, holy, 
and meritorious than God required of him. 

He assented to this. 

I then asked whether I was so to understand him 
as implying that a man might, by following the coun- 
sels of the Church of which he spoke, obtain a large 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. J95 

accession of merit, and then set this down, so to speak 
— if I might speak it with reverence — in a sort of ac- 
count with God, as if keeping a debtor and creditor 
account with God ; and thus, by increasing the sum 
of his meritorious actions, so far lessen the balance of 
sin that was against him, and thus lessen the amount 
of suffering or punishment for his sins. 

He smiled, and said that, though it seemed an un- 
usual way of stating the point, yet the truth was very 
much as I stated it ; that this merit went to lessen, 
not the sins as I had said, but the temporary suffer- 
ings and temporary punishment due to his sins. He 
added that the truth was, that the Church taught 
more than this, namely, that as a man could work out 
for himself more merit than was required for his own 
salvation — that as a man could thus accumulate merit, 
superfluous and supererogatory, it formed or went to 
form a sort of treasury of superabundant merits in the 
Church. 

I replied that I had so understood the doctrine of 
the Church of Rome ; that I had lately procured a 
small volume, just published by the order of Jesuits, 
setting forth all " the pious works" to which certain 
specified indulgences are attached, and that in this 
volume it is expressly stated that the superabundant 
merits of individuals — the merits which they have 
possessed over and beyond what was required for their 
own salvation, formed a sort of treasury of merit in 
the Church, and that the pope, as the head of the 
Church, had the disposal of all this superfluous merit, 
and could apply it to persons here or in purgatory, as 
it might seem good to him ; that thus he could lessen 



196 MORNINGS AMONG 

the period of suffering in the fires of purgatory by 
what was called a partial indulgence, and annihilate 
the whole by what was called a plenary indulgence, 
I added that this was a doctrine too evident in every 
thing that was to be seen in Rome, and that all my 
views of the truth of Holy Scripture — all my opinions 
of God's revealed word — all my feelings as to my own 
poor sinful soul, that ought to be humbled to the dust, 
revolted against such notions. The doctrine of human 
merit seemed to me unbecoming and unnatural, irrec- 
oncilable with human experience, and contrary to the 
plainest language of Holy Scripture ; but, bad and un- 
seemly as it was in itself, it seemed to me hideous 
and monstrous when carried to the outrageous extrav- 
agance of constituting a treasury of superfluous merits 
for the pope or any poor mortal to distribute or appor- 
tion to others in the way of indulgences to release 
them from purgatory. 

He said that he was not surprised at our repug- 
nance to it, and that he could not expect that we 
should receive it at first ; but that, after some more 
instruction, we should feel the difficulty pass away in 
this as in many other particulars. 

My wife said that nothing could reconcile us to this. 
It always was and always must be a fatal objection 
to the Church of Rome with all earnest and sincere 
Christians. She could never forget that it was this 
very point, carried out in the matter of indulgences, 
that first led Martin Luther to the work of the Ref- 
ormation ; and she added that day after day it was 
forced upon her memory at Rome, for whenever she 
looked on that noble Church of St. Peter's, she could 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. J 97 

never fail to remember the means' by which much 
of it was erected ; that a large amount of the money 
to defray the cost of its erection was raised by the 
sale of indulgences ; so that, in her memory and im- 
agination, the Reformation of Luther was always con- 
nected with the erection of St. Peter's — the unscrip- 
tural doctrines of human merit and of papal indul- 
gences. 

I was unwilling that this subject should pass away 
hastily, as if it were not a matter of the first and last 
importance, and therefore I remarked, with the view 
of leading farther into the subject involving so much 
of the essence of the Gospel, that Martin Luther felt 
very strongly on the point of human merit, and that 
he held that a man could never be justified by works, 
and could only be justified by faith in Christ. He 
held that the doctrine of justification was the question 
by which a standing and a falling church were to be 
distinguished. 

He replied, with great vehemence, that Luther was 
a bad man — an immoral man, inasmuch as his writ- 
ings led to immorality, and his life was horribly im- 
moral ; that he held that no actions were good ; that 
there were no good works ; that it was no matter 
whether a man did good or evil ; in short, it was per- 
fectly astounding the wickedness which he taught ; 
and yet, he added, Luther was a great man — a man 
of wonderful talent and power, and he stopped at noth- 
ing. He was a great man, but he was an awful 
one. He showed in his writings that his opinion was 
against all good works ; that there were no good works ; 
and that, even if there were, they were useless. The 



198 MORNINGS AMONG 

zeal and vehemence of my friend against Luther led 
him to say more and to express himself more strongly 
and warmly than is necessary to repeat here. 

I said that I apprehended that Luther was much 
misrepresented, and, indeed, that the doctrine of the 
Gospel and of the Anglican Church was much misun- 
derstood on the subject of faith on one hand, and works 
on the other. I then narrated an interesting incident 
of a Roman Catholic priest, who once called on me in 
private to lay open the state of his mind. We had 
long and deeply interesting conversations on many 
points, but there remained what he regarded as a fatal 
objection to the Church of England and all Protestant 
churches. They all, as he said, flung good works 
aside, and taught that men could be saved without 
them ; and he felt that no man could be saved unless 
he lived a holy life unto God. The reply which I 
made to him was, that he was evidently under a mis- 
take ; that all Protestant churches, and especially the 
Church of England, held the necessity of holiness or 
good works, but in a different way and for a different 
end from what he imagined. The truth of the Holy 
Scriptures, I said, was this : There is the Son of God, 
and there is the Holy Ghost, both the second and third 
persons of the Trinity ; both the one and the other of 
these has his own peculiar or special department in 
the economy of a man's salvation. The work or of- 
fice of the Son, Jesus Christ, is to justify us, that is, 
to take away our sins, and make us accepted through 
his merits in the sight of God. This is called our 
justification, and it is ours solely through faith in 
Jesus Christ, without any works or deserving on our 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. I99 

part. It is wholly through faith and without works. 
But this, I said, was the office or department of Jesus 
Christ. There was then the office and department of 
the Holy Spirit. He was to take in hand those who 
were justified by faith, and He was to make them 
holy — holy in thought, holy in feeling, holy in desire, 
holy in aspirations, and holy in their whole lives, lead- 
ing them, and teaching them, and enabling them to 
live in prayer, and humility, and good works, and all 
that partook of the example .of Jesus Christ. And 
thus, I continued, we hold that our justification, which 
is the office of the Son of God, is solely by faith and 
without works, while we hold that our sanctification, 
which is the work of th§ Holy Ghost, is manifested 
in every good word and work. Now Protestants hold 
both one and the other of these, but we do not like to 
confound them. We hold that the justification by 
Jesus Christ is necessary, and we also hold that the 
sanctification by the Holy Spirit is also necessary ; 
the former being through faith, the latter being a con- 
sequence, and never a cause of the former ; and there- 
fore it ought never be said of our Protestant churches 
that we reject the practice of good works. We put 
both faith and works in ther proper and relative places, 
and we do not like to confound them, and we shrink 
from supposing that there is merit in either one or the 
other. I added that this view of the question com- 
pletely satisfied the Roman Catholic priest, and shortly 
afterward he renounced the Church of Rome, and is 
now a minister of the Church of England. 

My reverend friend listened to this very attentive- 
ly, and stated that he quite understood it, but he 



200 MORNINGS AMONG 

wished to know why we denied merit to the good and 
holy works of the justified man. 

I answered this with an apology for having already 
said so much,, when I rather wished to be informed by 
hearing his opinions ; but that, if he could bear a little 
with me, I would endeavor to make some excuse fo* 
our Protestant views on this subject. I then said that 
we held that poor, and infirm, and sinful creatures, 
such as we are, can do no good thing, that is, nothing 
good in the searching eye of a holy God, unless as His 
Holy Spirit gives us His grace. It is not we, but the 
Holy Spirit, that does the good work in us. If we 
have a good thought — if we have a holy wish — if we 
have a heavenly desire — if we have done a good thing, 
it has been the Holy Spirit who has planted it in us 
or enabled us to do it. Whatever holy thought we 
think and whatever good work we are enabled to per- 
form, the praise and merit belong, not to us, but to 
the Holy Spirit, who has done it in us. The merit is 
His, and not ours, and it is a wrong and injury to Him 
for us to claim it as if it were ours. The great truth, 
I said, was this : our good and holy works, so far from 
making us creditors with God, as if we had a claim 
on him on account of our merits, do really bring us in 
more and more debtors to God. The more holy 
thoughts we have, and the more good works we do, 
even so the more are we made debtors unto God the 
Holy Ghost, by whose inspiration we were enabled to 
think the one or do the other. It has been some new 
and additional afflatus of the Holy Spirit, and it there- 
fore makes us debtors more than ever. This, I add- 
ed, was the view I took of this subjeot, feeling that 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 201 

our hearts were poor, weak, miserable things, and that, 
when rightly conscious of our real state, as our fallen 
hearts appear before God, the very last thought that 
can be congenial to the mind is that which could have 
connection with human merit. 

I can not say that my reverend friend was much 
affected by this mode of stating the subject. He heard 
it, however, with marked attention and respect. It 
seemed to commend itself to his better feelings, and I 
could only pray that the time might come when cir- 
cumstances might bring such views home to his con- 
victions and his heart. 

He merely said that there was what the Church 
called the humility of merit, and that the sentiments 
I had uttered were of that nature. He then turned 
away to some opinions of St. Augustine and St. Ber- 
nard, and on these we conversed for a short time, and 
soon afterward he retired with his companion. 

12 



202 MOBNINGS AMONG 



CHAPTER VIII. 

The Origin of the Catacombs — The Christians using them as a Refuge 
— As a Place of Worship — As a Burial-place — Forgotten and after- 
ward discovered — Resorted to for Relics — A Visit to them — Descripr 
tion of their present State — Means or Tests for the Discovery of Rel- 
ics — Collection of monumental Inscriptions found in the Catacombs 
— Their Character and Nature — A Conversation in the College of the 
Jesuits respecting them — Conclusion as to the Religion of the Prim- 
itive Church. 

During a visit to the Collegio Romano, a conver- 
sation arose in reference to the Catacombs, and the 
argument to be derived from their inscriptions. Some 
remarks respecting the Catacombs will be necessary 
to render the conversation intelligible. 

The origin of the Catacombs was in the days of 
pagan Rome, and long previous to the preaching of 
Christianity. They seem now universally regarded 
as the mines or quarries from which the inhabitants 
of Rome extracted those vast supplies of that kind of 
earth or sand called puzzolana, so generally used in 
their buildings. Quarrying in the Campagna for 
this, they carried their shafts sometimes to a consid- 
erable depth, and on striking on a vein, they followed 
its windings, sometimes upward, sometimes down- 
ward, now by long flights of steps, and then by wind- 
ing galleries. The branches from the main shafts or 
galleries extend in every direction, frequently so wind- 
ing as to intersect each other, debouching by a great 
variety of openings on the Campagna. These pas- 
sages are narrow, ranging generally from three to six 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 203 

feet in width, and from seven to ten in height. They 
are very rude, and rough, and rugged, presenting in 
themselves, apart from the associations which give 
them so deep an interest, nothing whatever beyond 
the shafts, galleries, or passages of any mine. They 
are cold, damp, and dark, and constitute a sort of gi- 
gantic honeycomb- work, extending for miles in differ- 
ent directions under ground ; and many a time the 
wanderer of the Campagna — the desolate Campagna 
— comes suddenly upon some deep hole — some dark 
hollow, which, if explored, will be found to be one of 
the innumerable entrances to these quarries, or at 
least one of those spots where the superincumbent 
soil has sunk in, and perhaps closed some branch of 
the Catacombs forever. Indeed, this sudden falling 
in of the earth after heavy rains, severe frosts, and 
occasional tremblings of an earthquake, has been a 
source of much danger. Tales are carefully narrated 
of scenes too horrible to describe here, of those who 
heedlessly and without competent guides have enter- 
ed these subterranean regions. The earth falling in 
has crushed or smothered some, while it has debarred 
forever all exit for others, who have been left there 
to perish miserably. They who thus sought the Cat- 
acombs as the grave-place of others, found them only 
a grave for themselves. 

These quarries or mines of puzzolana had long 
ceased to be worked by the Romans. They seem to 
have been exhausted ; at all events, they had been 
long closed as mines before those events of Christian 
history which were destined to shroud the Catacombs 
with an ineffaceable interest and charm. 



204 MORNINGS AMONG 

It is unnecessary to notice the persecutions of the 
primitive Church. The everlasting hatred — the fran- 
tic fury — the deep malignancy — the atrocious cruel- 
ty, so truly representing man as half beast and half 
fiend, that so characterized these several persecutions, 
are matters of history now familiar to all classes of 
Christians. They are alluded to here only as the 
causes which first operated in investing the Cata- 
combs with their special and peculiar interest. It was 
in these Catacombs the Christians concealed them- 
selves from the horrors of their persecutors. Some 
Christians, feeling themselves called on to stand as 
witnesses for the truth, gave their testimony with 
faithfulness and fearlessness, and willingly and rejoic- 
ingly sealed their testimony with their blood. They 
received the martyr's grave and the martyr's crown. 
Others seem to have sought their martyrdom — to 
have rushed madly to the tribunals, accused them- 
selves, and sought the crown of martyrdom as they 
might seek the robe of marriage. It is not necessary 
either to justify or impugn the motives of these per- 
sons, who seem to have freely sought persecution rath- 
er than to have been sought by it. But the immense 
body of the faithful, feeling no such special vocation 
to martyrdom — feeling confident that they would be 
enabled to stand faithful if called on in the hour of 
need—rather fled before their enemies, and sought to 
retire from view, and hide themselves till the storm 
were overpast. They fled in vast numbers, and con- 
cealed themselves in the Catacombs. As the profes- 
sion of Christianity became a capital offense, it be- 
came necessary for all to fly for their lives — to fly 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 205 

from home, kindred, property, all, and conceal them- 
selves until some change in the law or some mitiga- 
tion in the persecution might give them some hope of 
escape. In the mean time, family after family, as 
well as individual after individual, fled from the city 
of Rome into the Campagna ; and there, entering the 
holes and shafts of the Catacombs, concealed them- 
selves in the dark recesses, and winding passages, and 
gloomy labyrinths of those exhausted and neglected 
mines. We read of some of the saints of the Old 
Testament, that " they wandered about in sheep-skins 
and goat-skins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented, 
of whom the world was not worthy ; they wandered 
in deserts and in mountains, and in dens and caves 
of the earth." And these had their followers in the 
saints of the New Testament. They gathered in 
crowds into these dark caverns. They flitted among 
them like specters, startling and frightening each oth- 
er, as meeting suddenly in these graves of the living ; 
now shrinking in terror as from an approaching ene- 
my, and now meeting with joyous thankfulness some 
faithful friend. There must have been a powerful 
band of brotherhood created by scenes like these, by a 
consciousness of common dangers and mutual depend- 
ence, and by the fact that they all were the sufferers 
for the same high and holy cause ; and they were knit 
together by the strongest ties of Christian brother- 
hood, and they lived together encouraging and com- 
forting one another by that with which they them- 
selves were comforted of God, by the enduring, en- 
nobling hope of eternal life. 

This conversion of the Catacombs into places of ref- 



206 MORNINGS AMONG 

uge, and concealment for the miserable and persecuted 
Christians, led to their consecration to a yet higher 
and holier purpose. It led naturally to their becom- 
ing the place for Christian worship. It has been ever 
found in the experience of Christianity, that affliction 
and sorrow draw the heart from the things of this 
present world ; and that times like those to which we 
are now referring — times when no man could call his 
life his own, draw men powerfully to their knees, and 
lead to a more frequent, more earnest, more fervent 
attendance and devotion to the worship of God. Such 
times lead true and faithful men not only to more de- 
votion in private for personal comfort and strength, 
but also to more worship in public for mutual encour- 
agement and support. Accordingly, amid the deep 
afflictions and fearful sufferings of these victims of 
persecution, they assembled together for the worship 
of God. They there knelt, and prayed, and praised, 
and read together ; and those long passages and dreary 
caverns resounded with the words of prayer, and with 
the hymn of praise, and with the reading of the word, 
and with the preaching of the Gospel, as these faith- 
ful and devout men, the children of persecuted Chris- 
tianity, and living martyrs to the faith of Jesus, pour- 
ed out their souls in prayer and praise. There they 
excavated little recesses and called them churches, 
where they could assemble in larger numbers for the 
common worship of God and the communion of the 
Lord's Supper ; and there many a hardened heart 
was melted into love, and many a broken spirit was 
healed by the balm of Gilead, and many an afflicted 
soul was comforted of God, There must have been 



THE JESUITS AT ROME, 207 

an inexpressible charm in the words of Holy Scrip- 
ture under such touching circumstances, and there 
must have been a marvelous power in the Gospel 
preached faithfully in such strange scenes and stran- 
ger times. Nor was this all. Even when persecu- 
tion relaxed in violence, and Christians were not nec- 
essarily exposed to death for their profession ; and 
when, therefore, they were enabled to steal forth from 
these dark caves, and return to home and relatives, 
still there was no relaxation of violence against any 
thing approaching to a public celebration of Christian 
worship. It was necessary, therefore, to conduct it 
with the strictest secrecy — a secrecy so strict as to 
be unknown to all but those whose faithfulness could 
be entirely depended on ; and it was thence invested 
intentionally with a veil of mystery, so as to insure 
its being kept secret from the uninitiated. This se- 
crecy became the more necessary, when discovery 
would have been the certain martyrdom of the most 
zealous and devoted of the ministry of the Church. 
All this led to the worship of the Christians being se- 
cretly and mysteriously celebrated in the Catacombs ; 
and those Christians who, living in the upper world, 
breathing the air and enjoying the light of heaven, 
yet loved to join in the common service and in the 
holy communion, were obliged to resort in the silent 
hours of night to those holes in the Campagnst which 
led through many a long and winding intricacy to the 
secret recesses where they could enjoy the ministra- 
tions of the Church. 

And further still, these dark and dreary scenes were 
destined to receive a yet further source of interest. 



208 MORNINGS AMONG 

The Christians who fled there and found safety there 
were not unmindful of their brethren who in the up- 
per world were called to the trials of martyrdom ; who, 
not escaping as others, or perhaps arrested in the mo- 
ment of escaping, were doomed to the sword, or to the 
scaffold, or to the wild beasts of the Colosseum. They 
used to steal from their hiding-places by night, and 
bear away the mangled bodies and scattered bones of 
these martyred men, and, bringing them among their 
brethren, thank God for the faithfulness of their tes- 
timony, pray to God to be enabled to follow the ex- 
ample of patience and faith, and then bury them in 
the recesses of the Catacombs. The Catacombs thus 
became the graves of the martyrs. Too soon and too 
often, alas ! they became the scenes of martyrdom. 
On some occasions, when the fury of persecution 
raged with more than ordinary malignancy, the per- 
secutors would enter the Catacombs and slay the un- 
happy Christians even in their hiding-places ; and 
though, in the intricacy of these deep recesses, the 
unhappy ones were able easily to stop passages and 
remain only in those places where none but those 
well acquainted with the place oould possibly trace 
them, yet at times they were treacherously betrayed 
and surprised, so as that the Catacombs became not 
only the graves of martyrs, but the scenes of martyr- 
dom ; and besides this, the Christians usually buried 
their dead in these places. The pagan Romans, at 
least of the higher and wealthier classes, usually burn- 
ed their dead, and deposited the ashes in small cine- 
rary urns or vessels. The Christian Romans, on the 
other hand, seem invariably to have adopted the prac- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



209 



tice of burying their dead, perhaps from the Jewish 
custom, or from the prevalent opinion that the end of 
the world was at hand, and that their bodies would 
soon arise again for immortality. At all events, 
whatever was the motive, the practice was universal. 
They made no burial-places above ground, but taking 
the relics of the dead into the recesses of the Cata- 
combs, where so many of the slaves and poorer class- 
es of the heathens were buried, they there deposited 
their brethren. They cut a cavity in the side wall, 
so to speak, of the passage or gallery, sufficiently 
large to contain the body, and there they laid it. This 
system continued for years, even for centuries ; and 
as the numbers of Christians multiplied at Rome, so 
the number of burials multiplied in proportion, till all 
through the Catacombs, the walls of the passages and 
galleries at both sides are full of these graves, arrang- 
ed sometimes two and three deep, so that the stran- 
ger now walking through the Catacombs is walking 
through long galleries of the dead, sleeping on either 
hand in numbers beyond counting. There lie buried 
the mangled forms of the most faithful of martyrs — 
men who counted not their lives dear to themselves ; 
there lie buried the bones of many an afflicted and per- 
secuted saint, who lived and died in the hope of glory ; 
there rest the mortal remains of many a faithful Chris- 
tian, whose life adorned the Gospel he professed, and 
commended it to the admiration of all men ; and there 
lie the moldering bodies of ten thousand times ten 
thousand of those men who have professed the name 
of Christian, but whose hearts are known only to Him 
who shall reveal all secrets at the judgment day. 



210 MORNINGS AMONG 

Such is the interest associated with the Catacombs. 
It is purely the interest of association, as in them- 
selves they possess nothing of attraction even to the 
curious ; but associated as they are with the perse- 
cutions of the primitive Church, consecrated by being 
the place where the sacred services were celebrated, and 
hallowed as the resting-place of so many Christians, 
they possess an enduring charm to the Christian. 

And yet it seems strange that they should have 
been so long neglected and forgotten. It is certain 
that soon after Christianity had triumphed over pagan- 
ism, and had become the established religion of the 
empire, the Catacombs ceased to be resorted to as the 
sacred and cherished burial-place of the Christian dead. 
They were closed. From being unused they soon be- 
came neglected, and from being neglected they soon 
became forgotten. It is a remarkable fact, that for 
many centuries the memory of the Catacombs was 
forgotten, and even their existence totally unknown. 
For ages all tradition of their uses — their sacredness 
— their moldering contents — rand even of their very 
existence, was utterly lost. In the city of Rome, with 
all its crowding memories, this was los.t. In the 
Church of Rome, with all its supposed congeniality 
with antiquity — with all its boasted veneration and 
devotion to the ancient — with all its priests and its 
monks, its convents and its monasteries — in the 
Church of Rome, all memory of the Catacombs as the 
refuge of the persecuted Christian — as the place of 
the services of the persecuted Church — as the burial- 
place of the martyrs and the saints of Christ, was as 
thoroughly lost, and as perfectly a forgotten and neg- 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



2il 



lected thing as in the mosques of Mecca. It was not 
till the sixteenth century that the evidence of their 
existence and their uses called attention to them, and 
the interest and importance of the subject were forced 
upon the lazy and slumbering inmates of the innu- 
merable convents of Rome. 

And even then they were destined to be desecrated 
by a use that could scarcely have been Anticipated. 
They were invaded by innumerable bands of monks 
and friars, collecting from their graves the bones of 
the long-buried dead — disturbing the moldering relics 
of mortality — dragging them into the upper world — 
hawking them from city to city, and from country to 
country, and driving an execrable traffic in them un- 
der the name of relics. Every grave was rifled, every 
skeleton was rent asunder, every bone was pounded in 
order to multiply splinters ; and when once the grave 
of some martyr or saint was said to be discovered, the 
head was severed and sent to one country, and the leg 
was severed and sent to another, an arm was for- 
warded to one land and a thigh to another, a tooth 
was extracted from the skull and sent to some con- 
vent, and a rib severed from the back sent to some 
monastery. And, at the same time, a traffic of the 
most disgraceful and degrading nature was driven in 
all these, as lawful articles of ecclesiastical merchand- 
ise. The demand for such articles was so great in 
the superstition and ignorant of the times, and the 
miraculous properties of such relics were so extrava- 
gantly extolled, as of incalculable advantage to the 
temporal and spiritual interest of the possessors, that 
the demand of the market soon called forth an ade- 



212 MORNINGS AMONG 

quate supply ; and such was the unscrupulousness of 
the authorities at Rome, and so utterly profligate the 
monks who were the merchants in this matter, that 
they not unfrequently sold several different skulls as 
the only true skull of some particular martyr, and sev- 
eral different arms as the veritable arms of some fa- 
vorite saint, so that even at the present day some 
saints have several different heads and arms in differ- 
ent places. Sometimes the traveler in Italy discovers 
some martyr who has had two or three heads, and 
some saint who has had four or five arms, and per- 
haps a still greater superfluity of legs. The enormous 
amount of wealth which this traffic brought into Rome 
is incalculable. The Catacombs, as a mine of bones, 
proved incomparably more precious than if they had 
been a mine of silver. 

But disgusting and sickening as was all this as an 
indecency and an outrage upon the dead, and revolt- 
ing as it was to every gentle and Christian feeling, it 
yet could not alter the facts of past history, nor strip 
the Catacombs of their touching interest and real im- 
portance to the student of Christian history. There 
the Catacombs remained, there the graves of the 
Christians remained, there the monuments of the dead 
remained ; and while these remained, it might be hoped 
that they would supply some evidences — some items 
of primitive customs and primitive opinions, that might 
serve to. illustrate the Opinions and the practices of 
primitive Christianity. 

The best mode of visiting these scenes, at least 
those Catacombs most generally, because most easily, 
visited and explored, is by entering them through the 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 213 

Church of the Convent of St. Sebastian. It is narrated 
in the legend of that saint that he was a young and 
handsome soldier ; that for the crime of believing in 
Christianity he was bound to a tree as a target for the 
arrows of his comrades ; that having been shot through 
every limb till he bristled with arrows, a human por- 
cupine, he yet survived by a miracle ; that he again 
accused himself before the tribunals, and was dispatch- 
ed by decapitation. This, or something of this kind, 
is the legend of St. Sebastian, one of the most favored 
and popular of the saints at Rome ; not so much from 
any thing extraordinary in the saint himself, as from 
his being so useful and fine a subject for the pencils 
of the artists. The fine and youthful figure — the 
fleshiness and nakedness — the grace of the position, 
and the expression of the face, all supply a noble sub- 
ject for the artist ; and the multiplication of the pic- 
tures creates a multiplication of votaries. It is said 
by the monks of the Convent of St. Sebastian that 
their church or chapel is built over that part of the 
Catacomb where the body of the saint was buried. 
This is by no means improbable ; at all events, there 
is an entrance— and it is by far the best and most 
convenient — into the Catacombs through the church 
of the convent. 

The monk who acted as guide or cicerone on our 
visit to these interesting scenes was selected for his 
office with admirable judgment and as admirable 
taste. He looked like a moving plague — a personifi- 
cation of the malaria — a walking pestilence. There 
he was, an attenuated thing, a living skeleton, with 
his brown cloak around him to conceal the bones from 



214 MORNINGS AMONG 

view ; you might fancy you could almost see the light 
of the candles shining through his ribs ; and, withal, 
he looked a meek and subdued man, one who spoke 
with vivacity — indeed, with enthusiasm, though his 
voice was toned with a sad and melancholy cadence. 
He was very calm, thoughtful, and silent if left to 
himself, but exceedingly animated and communicative 
when questioned. He spoke in raptures of the sub- 
terranean chapel, and gave all real and needful in- 
formation, as well as a good deal that was unreal, 
respecting the Catacombs, that the general visitor 
could require. He supplied each'of our party with a 
lighted candle. He led the way himself with steps 
slow and solemn, and as stealthy as if he feared to 
disturb the slumbers of the dead. On he moved, or 
rather glided, through those dark passages and damp 
galleries, looking for all the world like a ghost ; and, 
but for the color of his brown monkish dress, with his 
thin, haggard, attenuated look, and, at the same time, 
his earnest and impressive manner, he might well 
have passed for one of the ancient inhabitants of the 
Catacombs called again to life. He would stop at 
times, and carefully explain all the details of some 
grave more remarkable than the rest, and at other 
times he would pause, hold his candle in one hand, 
and mysteriously point with his other bony hand to 
some spot or object — look unutterably mysterious, 
and then drop his eyes to the ground, and pass on 
without another word. And then, when all was over, 
he looked so poor and sad — so miserable and meek, 
and stood so modestly looking for the gratuity usual- 
ly given on those occasions, with an expression that 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



215 



seemed designed to move the visitor to more than or- 
dinary liberality, that there really was no resisting 
the incomparable acting of his silent begging. Poor 
man ! he earns hardly the money he receives. 

The graves of the Catacombs are excavated on both 
sides of these passages. They are excavated in the 
soil or tufo which forms the sides of the passages, and 
therefore can be examined with the greatest possible 
facility. They are often smaller — much smaller than 
might be expected ; indeed, so very small sometimes 
as to raise the question as to the manner in which 
the bodies of the dead could have found room in them. 

That these graves, at least for the greater portion, 
were the graves of Christians, is very generally be- 
lieved. The grounds of that belief are not so certain 
as might be desirable. It was certainly the custom 
of the pagan Romans to bum their dead. But this 
was true generally, and not universally, for it was 
customary . to bury the slaves and the poorer classes ; 
and there is not a shadow of doubt as to the Cata- 
combs having been frequently used as the burial-place 
of those classes of the heathen population long before 
their being made the refuge of the persecuted Chris- 
tians. And, besides this, there is every probability 
that the Christians often buried the bodies of their 
heathen relatives among those of other Christian mem- 
bers of the same family. The bones of many who 
had continued in heathenism were laid in affectionate 
remembrance beside those of others, near and loved, 
who had embraced Christianity ; and thus heathen 
and Christian sleep side by side, in the last and com- 
mon resting-place of humanity. 



216 MOENINGS AMONG 

This fact has been placed beyond a shadow of doubt 
by the number of monumental inscriptions, which are 
certainly heathen, found in the Catacombs. Nor is 
it a sufficient answer to this to suggest that possibly 
they may have taken the monumental tablets of 
heathens, and employed them to cover the graves of 
Christians, as this would only prove that there were 
the tombs of heathens close at hand ; indeed, this 
seems very certain, for some stones have heathen in- 
scriptions on one side, and Christian inscriptions on 
the other, showing that they had taken a heathen 
stone, and, reversing it, placed it on a Christian 
grave, and then wrote a suitable inscription. 

It was almost universal among the pagan Romans 
to place over the monumental inscription the words 
" Divis manibus," which they sometimes contracted 
to the first two letters, "D. M.," the allusion being to 
the gods presiding over the place of the dead. This 
and other allusions to their gods occur frequently on 
the monumental tablets of the Catacombs, thus de- 
monstrating the fact of the burial of heathens in those 
places. 

The non-observance of this has led to some ludi- 
crous mistakes — even to the enrolling some heathens 
in the roll of saints, and the worship of the bones of 
heathens as the relics of saints. The following is a 
well-known instance of this : 

D. M. 
Julia Evodia, filia fecit castae matri. 

This is a heathen inscription. The tablet is dedi- 
cated to the manes, " Divis manibus," and is similar 
to thousands of others found on the graves and urns 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 217 

of heathens. It is a memento which Julia Evodia, a 
daughter, raised to her mother ; and, without ever 
considering that the lady was a heathen, the monks 
have disposed of her bones as the relics of a saint and 
martyr ; and never observing that it was the grave 
of the mother, whose name is not given, they have 
christened the bones by the name of the daughter, as 
the relics of Saint Julia Evodia, who had erected the 
tablet ! 

This is a well-known and amusing instance of the 
mistakes into which either their ignorance or their 
avarice seduced the clergy of Rome in former days. 
They now, indeed, exhibit some ingenuity in suggest- 
ing that the D. M. of the heathen monuments may 
possibly have been adopted among some Christians to 
express Deo Maximo or perhaps Divus Martyr, and 
thus endeavor to Christianize all those monuments of 
the heathens found in the Catacombs ! The enlight- 
ened and candid among them laugh at the whole af- 
fair as much as ourselves ; and this they can do the 
more easily, as all that could have been gained by the 
mistakes or deceptions of the old monks has long since 
been accomplished. 

On asking our emaciated and ghastly guide for the 
signs by which he could ascertain the grave of a 
Christian from that of a heathen, he replied by point- 
ing to little crosses scratched on the wall beside or 
above the graves. He pronounced these to be the 
signs of the Christian faith of the departed dead. This 
seemed reasonable; but it occurred at the moment 
that, as these Catacombs were in the possession of 
these monks for some centuries, so they could scratch 

K 



218 MORNINGS AMONG 

these crosses over any number of graves that might 
seem desirable. It was clear they could never be de- 
tected, and the character of monks has never been 
such as to secure them from all suspicion of " pious 
frauds." This appeared still more probable, when, 
having lingered a little behind our party in order to 
examine some grave more accurately, I observed a 
gentleman occupying himself the mean time in mak- 
ing these crosses with the iron end of his walking 
stick ! We agreed that there was no appearance of 
difference between these and the other crosses, and so 
our young friend amused himself with making a few 
more ; and when we left the Catacombs, he congratu- 
lated himself on having made half a dozen saints or 
Christians at least during his visit ! 

I was particularly anxious to learn the means by 
which the monks were able to ascertain the bones of 
a saint — the bones of a martyr — from the bones of 
any ordinary Christian. As the Catacombs were the 
great treasure-house of relics, I wished to learn the 
tests or signs by which those bones which were to be 
venerated as relics of saints were to be discerned from 
the bones of others. "While residing far away in the 
distant scenes of England, a man. is compelled to rest 
satisfied with what information he can gather from 
books on such subjects, and there is scarcely a strong 
statement can be made by one party that is not im- 
mediately contradicted by the other, so that the mind 
of an inquirer is held in suspense, amid the hardihood 
of assertion generated by the odium theologicum, by 
that compound of the gall and vinegar of Calvary. 
But I have sometimes thought that there would be a 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 



219 



satisfaction in making the inquiry and receiving the 
answer on the spot. I resolved, therefore, to ask the 
question, amid the dark vaults and dreary graves of 
the Catacombs, and to obtain my answer amid the 
fleshless skeletons and long-silent bones of the primi- 
tive Christians. 

The poor attenuated skeleton of a monk, who seem- 
ed to me as pious as he was poor, and as sincere as 
he was attenuated, stated that one sign was a red 
mark, which was sometimes observed beside a grave. 
This, he said, was the blood of the martyr, which was 
thus sprinkled on this spot, in order to remain as a sign 
of martyrdom. Another sign was a small bottle, 
which was found at many graves, but not at all. This 
bottle was found to contain some deposit of a reddish 
hue, which it has been inferred was blood — the blood 
of the person there buried, and who therefore must 
have died the death of a martyr. It at once suggest- 
ed itself that it was an easy matter for the monks to 
multiply the number of their images, whenever they 
were in need of a new supply of relics for the market, 
as they had only to place a red mark upon any grave, 
or deposit one of these little bottles of terra cotta be- 
side it. I felt that at least I could have no great de- 
pendence on them, even supposing the signs were real 
and not fictitious ; for there is no authority — no 
ground whatever — not the shadow of authority or 
ground for supposing that either the red spot or the 
bottle are signs of martyrdom or saintship, any more 
than of that Christianity which holds salvation by the 
blood of the cross. If they are signs of any thing par- 
ticular, they seem rather the sign of men who died de- 



220 MORNINGS AMONG 

pending on the blood of Christ, and whose surviving 
friends gave to their graves that sign of their faith. 
The truth is, no dependence whatever can be placed 
on these signs ; and I afterward found that they were 
laughed at by the more learned clergy of Rome. 

Our interesting but most credulous guide seemed 
fully to believe what he was stating ; and when I in- 
quired as to the signs or tests of a saint — the means 
by which the bones of a saint — not a martyr, but a 
saint — might be discerned from those of ordinary 
Christians, he replied with the most perfect simplici- 
ty, that when they were first discovered they emitted 
a sweet odor — a delicious fragrance, that ravished the 
senses ; and as this certainly was not the ordinary 
property of dead men's bones, it seemed to argue—if 
true — something most marvelous and saintly. But 
this was not all. "When these bones were brought 
forth into the upper world, they wrought the most 
wonderful miracles : the sick were healed, the dead 
were raised, the heretics were converted at the touch 
or sight of these bones, thus demonstrated to be the 
relics of some saint. There is one instance on record. 
It was the case of a skull — a fleshless, eyeless, tongue- 
less, noseless skull. It was questioned, after certain 
exorcisms, as to the rightful owner, and it answered 
its name, its residence, and told the circumstances un- 
der which its owner was decapitated, dying a martyr's 
death ! What other persons may think of such mar- 
velous doings — such exquisite perfumes from bones, 
and such interesting colloquies from skulls- — it is not 
for me to say or determine. The poor monk who 
guided us through these dreary Catacombs seemed 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 221 

religiously to believe them, and he was not singular 
in doing so. The enlightened portion of the eccle- 
siastical body, however, are quite as unbelieving as 
Protestants on these particulars. 

It was not possible that a source of evidence, so 
calculated to illustrate and prove the character of 
primitive Christianity as the inscriptions in the Cat- 
acombs, should fail to attract universal attention. It 
was fortunate for me that I had paid much close atten- 
tion to the great mass of such inscriptions, collected 
from the Catacombs, and deposited with admirable ar- 
rangement in the Vatican, as otherwise I should have 
been taken by surprise, and have been wholly unable 
to deal with the arguments of my friends the Jesuits, 
derived from those inscriptions. I was one day in the 
Collegio Romano, in company with the librarian, the 
professor of Antiquities or Archaeology, the professor 
of Dogmatic Theology, and the professor of Canon 
Law, and some others of the priesthood. These 
learned, and courteous, and agreeable persons were 
members of the order of Jesuits, and were an orna- 
ment to any society with which they were connected ; 
and they were not likely, when showing to me some 
tablets taken from the Catacombs, and selected on ac- 
count of their inscriptions, and deposited in the Col- 
legio Romano, to omit the fair opportunity which they 
offered of impressing me with the value of those in- 
scriptions as evidences of the ancient faith and prac- 
tice of the Church of Rome. 

I stated frankly that I had spent some time in the 
Catacombs, and that I had no great faith in the con- 
clusions which some of my kind friends of Rome ha- 
bitually deduced from them. 



222 MORNINGS AMONG 

They asked me what were the conclusions to which 
I referred, and why I should doubt what seemed so 
evident to them. 

I replied, that " the Congregation of Relics" once 
came to a decision as to the relics found in the Cata- 
combs ; that that decision was to the effect that the 
appearance of a palm branch graven on a tombstone, 
and the appearance of a vessel tinged with blood, were 
to be received as sure and certain signs of a martyr's 
grave. Such was their decision. But, since that 
decision was recorded, much more has been brought 
to light, which has proved the erroneous character of 
that conclusion of the congregation. For example : 
some of those vessels, supposed thus to have been ves- 
sels of martyr's blood, have been found, on careful ex- 
amination, to be of a form and make long subsequent 
to the age of persecution, and to exhibit signs painted 
or graven upon them which could not have been so 
graven or painted till after the times of martyrdom, 
inasmuch as they were not invented till years long 
subsequent. And again, in reference to the palm 
branch, it has been clearly ascertained that the grav- 
ing of a sprig or branch, which they call a palm, is 
frequently found on the graves of those who were un- 
doubted heathens ; and also on the graves of infants 
too young for martyrdom ; and also on graves of a 
period subsequent to the age of martyrdom. The de- 
cision, therefore, of the congregation of relics, has 
been altogether rejected of late years, even among all 
the learned of the Roman Church. It is altogether 
rejected even by yourselves. I added, that the decis- 
ion of the congregation was well enough for the few 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 223 

items of knowledge then in their possession ; but, in- 
asmuch as their confident decision is now universally 
exploded, it had shaken all confidence on my part in 
the peremptory statements so frequently made at 
Rome in reference to the inscriptions found in the 
Catacombs. I felt constrained to examine and judge 
for myself. 

I perceived that this remark on my part had its ef- 
fect—the effect which I desired — in lowering the tone 
of confident assertion and bold statement which my 
friends had been exhibiting while we were looking 
over the library. They at once stated, however, that 
they were not referring to the decisions of the con- 
gregation of relics respecting the graves of martyrs 
as distinct from the graves of other saints, but to the 
inscriptions and figures graven upon the tablets as in- 
dicative of the fact that certain religious practices, 
against which Protestants objected in the Church of 
Rome, and which were made a ground of protestation 
and separation, were religious practices prevalent 
among those who were the saints and martyrs of the 
primitive Church. On my asking to what religious 
practice they especially alluded, one of my friends 
replied by referring to the practice of invocation of 
saints — praying to the saints ; adding that there was 
no doubt as to the existence of the practice, as it was 
evidenced in the inscriptions. 

I asked to what inscription and what words he al- 
luded, as I had observed nothing of the kind. 

He replied by boldly stating that some of the tab- 
lets were inscribed with the " orate pro nobis" or, 
rather, correcting himself, " ora pro nobis." 



224 MORNINGS AMONG 

I said that I had seen nothing of the kind ; that I 
had carefully examined the great collection of inscrib- 
ed tablets deposited in the Vatican ; that some of 
them — indeed, the larger portion — had no evidence or 
trace of Christianity beyond a cross, or some anagram 
or emblem of Christ, as the ship or the fish, or the 
Greek letter X, or the A and ft, or some other of the 
various symbols of the Christian faith ; that some 
commenced with the solitary word " Pax ;" some con- 
cluded with the words " in pace" or " in Christo," 
implying that the person either lived or died in peace 
or in Christ — in the peace of God or in the faith of 
Christ ; that I had observed many inscriptions stating 
that the person lived in peace, " vixit in pace" and 
only one vivas in pace, expressive of the sigh or wish 
of the survivor that the person might live in peace, 
and very few others of the same import ; and that, in 
the large variety of inscriptions which I had had an 
opportunity of examining, I had never seen or heard 
of more than one with either or a or orate pro nobis. 

My friend replied that there was no doubt of the 
fact that there were such inscriptions, and that they 
actually possessed one in the college, and that he had 
seen the inscription, so that there could be no ques- 
tion as to the prevalence of the practice of saying the 
orate pro nobis — praying to the saints to pray for us. 

I reminded him that there were collected about two 
thousand inscriptions ; that these were taken chiefly 
from the monumental tablets of the Catacombs ; that 
they were cited as the representatives of the opinions 
of the primitive Christians ; and that all he was ena- 
bled to say # was, that among these two thousand he 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 225 

had seen one with this inscription ! I then added, 
that, considering the heathens of Rome prayed to their 
departed heroes, it was no more than natural that 
some few of these, on embracing Christianity, more 
in profession than in reality, might ignorantly contin- 
ue the practice, and pray to some departed saint ; and 
that such an exception could prove nothing in favor 
of the practice ; that so isolated an instance as one 
inscription could only serve, like an exception, to prove 
the rule, and the real wonder was that more could not 
be found ; and the fact that more were not found 
among the thousands collected, proved powerfully that 
it was not the practice of the primitive Christians to 
inscribe the ora pro nobis on their tombs. The in- 
ference was, that they did not pray to the saints. 

He answered this by saying that I must at least 
acknowledge that the inscription implied that the saints 
in heaven prayed for us ; that after they died they did 
not lose their holy sympathies for us, nor their love of 
prayer for those whom they loved in life, and whom 
they left behind them in this vale of tears ; and that, if 
they thus prayed for us, it could not be wrong for us to 
ask their prayers, now that they are in heaven, as we 
had often asked them while they were yet upon earth. 

I replied that even his own interpretation of the in- 
scription implied rather that the saints in heaven 
prayed for the saints on earth — that they prayed for 
us — and that I felt that there was a wide difference 
between our supposing that they prayed for us and 
our praying to them. I believed that it was a very 
early opinion among Christians that the departed 
Christians or saints were in the presence of God, and 

K2 



226 MORNINGS AMONG 

prayed to God for them ; but I felt this was widely 
different from our praying to them — offering those 
prayers to them which should be offered only to God. 

He expressed himself greatly pleased at my ac- 
knowledgment of such opinions as being prevalent very 
early in the Church, and he spoke as if he thought 
there was little or no difference between their praying 
for us and our praying to them, and then went on to 
say that there was a marked distinction to be observed 
in the inscriptions on the monuments of the Cata- 
combs. One class, he stated, contained such expres- 
sions as requiescat in pace — may he rest in peace — 
may he be refreshed, may he be comforted: all this 
class are the monuments of Christian persons gener- 
ally, and these inscriptions are prayers for the dead. 
The other class are the monuments of martyrs, who 
pass at once into the beatific vision of God, and who 
therefore do not need those prayers for their peace, re- 
freshment, or comfort. Therefore those prayers are 
omitted ; and this was the real cause of there being 
so many monuments without, prayers. It was be- 
cause there were so many martyrs. 

I said that I could not assent to his ideas of either 
class ; that the fact of there being no prayers for the 
dead or to the dead inscribed on the monuments, was to 
me an evidence that the Christians of those days nei- 
ther prayed for the dead nor to the dead, and that this 
was a much easier way of accounting for the omission 
than supposing that all these were the monuments of 
martyrs, a supposition for which, as far as I could 
judge, there was not the faintest foundation. And 
as for the statement that the words requiescat in pace, 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 227 

and such similar expressions, were inscribed on the 
tablets, I could only say I had never seen such among 
all I had examined, that is, among all the collection 
in the Vatican, a collection larger than all other col- 
lections in the world combined. Such an instance 
might be there ; I heard there was, but I saw noth- 
ing like it : on one tablet, indeed, I had seen the nat- 
ural and loving ejaculation vivas in pace, may you 
have peace ! ' and this appeared to me no more than a 
wish expressed to the dead rather than a prayer ad- 
dressed to God. I added that I could only speak of 
what I had myself seen. It was possible he might 
have had larger and better opportunities of informing 
himself, and that he had probably examined them more 
closely ; but that I apprehended there might be some 
mistake on his part, and I would therefore feel obliged 
by his showing me some inscription of the kind. 

The reply to this was, conducting me to several 
tablets, and pointing to one on which was rudely en- 
graved or scratched the figure of a man in a kneeling 
posture. 

My friend, pointing to this, and observing that I 
was silent and could make nothing of it, said that 
there was a kind of monumental language well known 
and understood ; that it was derived from a compar- 
ison of a large number of inscriptions ; that when a 
tablet was found without a prayer for the dead, it was 
to be regarded as the tablet of a martyr ; and that, 
as martyrs go at once into the vision of God, they do 
not need any prayers, and therefore no prayers are in- 
scribed on their tablets ; that, instead of such pray- 
ers, there was some emblem, as a representation of a 



228 MORNINGS AMONG 

person standing in the attitude of prayer, or as the 
figure of a kneeling man, that is, the figure of a man 
praying to the martyred dead, and thus imbodying, 
not indeed the words, but the idea of the ora pro no- 
bis. He said that this was a matter very well known 
and understood by those who were acquainted with 
the language of the monumental inscriptions. 

I could not but smile at this statement. I had 
seen so many of these monuments without any thing 
that could imply a prayer for the dead, that I had 
concluded from thence that the primitive Christians 
did not cherish such a practice as praying for the dead 
in the age of the Catacombs ; but my friend of the 
order of Jesuits assigned as the reason for so marked 
an omission, that all such monuments are those of 
the martyrs, who were in no need of such prayers ! 
Thus variously do different minds look upon the same 
things. 

I remarked, in a doubting tone, that my friend 
seemed to regard the kneeling or praying figure as 
the representation, not of the martyr, but of some liv- 
ing friend. 

He said that the monumental language demanded 
this. A martyr could not require prayer, and there- 
fore the figure could not represent the martyr him- 
self ; that it must therefore represent some one else, 
perhaps his friend, or relative, or follower, who erect- 
ed the tablet, and who engraved his own representa- 
tion on the tablet, to show himself in the act of pray- 
ing to the departed and glorified martyr ; that this 
was the well-understood language of such inscriptions, 
and that I might depend on this interpretation. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 229 

I replied that his process of reasoning did not strike 
me as very logical. He found tablets without pray- 
ers for the dead, and at once concluded that they were 
the monuments of martyrs who needed no prayers ; 
and now he found a figure of a praying man, and at 
once concluded it could not represent the man buried 
beneath the monument, but the living man who erect- 
ed the monument. I understood that the monument 
was always the monument of the dead ; that the in- 
scription was always with reference to the dead ; that 
any picture, or image, or other representation was de- 
signed for the dead, and that it was quite new to me 
to hear of their representing the living. I regarded it 
as representing the dead, and accordingly, in the mon- 
uments of the Catacombs, such figures are always of 
the same sex as the dead person. 

[In a subsequent conversation at my own residence 
with one of my friends from the Collegio Romano, this 
subject was renewed, and I was not a little surprised 
at finding a new and different interpretation given of 
this figure. It was then argued that the kneeling fig- 
ure represented the buried dead ; that it represented 
him as kneeling in prayer, and that it thus showed 
that the saints and martyrs in heaven pray, and that, 
as they can not pray for themselves, so they must be 
praying for us. In the Collegio Romano, the figure 
was said to represent the living ; but at my own res- 
idence it was said to represent the dead or departed ! 
These inconsistencies are very frequent when arguing 
with different persons.] 

My friend replied that I was quite mistaken in re- 
garding the figure as the representation of the depart- 



230 MORNINGS AMONG 

ed one, for that the known language of inscriptions 
required it should be the representation of the living 
Christian who erected the tablet ; and it was design- 
ed to show his belief in the martyr's enjoyment of the 
beatific vision of God, and that he was thus praying 
to the martyr to pray to God for him — asking for the 
intercession of the martyr — really, an or a pro nobis ; 
and it was thus a clear proof or justification of "the 
Catholic Church" in praying to the departed saints to 
pray for us. 

I answered this by saying that I could not think 
the figure represented the living Christian who erected 
the tablet ; that such an interpretation was forced and 
unnatural, for that it was the custom of all ages and 
of all nations to represent the dead rather than the 
living on their monuments. I could not but think 
that the figure was designed to represent the dead, as 
one who had lived and died a praying man. 

He at once caught at my words, and said that if 
I regarded the figure as representing the departed 
saint, then I must acknowledge it as evidence that in 
the primitive Church they thought the departed saints 
prayed ; and that, as they needed not to pray for 
themselves, they must be praying for us. 

I said that I did not regard the figure as repre- 
senting the departed saint as praying for us in heav- 
en, but as having been a praying man in his life ; that 
as the words "in peace" and "in Christ" implied that 
the departed had lived or died in the peace of God and 
in the faith of Christ, so the kneeling posture might 
imply that he lived or died in prayer. I thought this 
the natural interpretation of the figure ; and I said 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 231 

that in England, and I believed in other countries, and 
certainly in the Church of St. Peter ut Rome, the 
monumental statues always represent the departed 
persons ; that it was usual to represent them, not as 
they were when dead, but as they were when alive — 
the warrior as a warrior — the orator as an orator — 
the painter as a painter — the clergyman as a clergy- 
man ; and I observed that all the monumental figures 
of popes and nuns in St. Peter's represented them as 
popes or nuns — represented them as they were on 
earth, and not as they are supposed to be in heaven; 
and that, in the same way, we ought to regard this 
kneeling figure as representing the departed Christian 
as he lived or died on earth, a praying man. He was 
represented kneeling, to show he was a man of prayer 
— a Christian man. There is an example of it in 
Scripture, where the conversion of St. Paul is described 
in the simple words, "Behold, he prayeth !" 

There was no direct reply to this, but it was 
stated that I could not deny that the saints departed 
prayed for the Christians still on earth ; and that it 
was customary in the primitive Church to pray for 
the dead. 

I said that I believed it was a very early practice 
in the Church to pray for the dead ; that I thought it 
a very foolish, though perhaps natural practice ; that 
it always seemed to me to be praying when it was too 
late, like praying for yesterday — for a thing gone by; 
but that, at all events, praying for the dead was a 
very different thing from praying to the dead ; that 
the two seemed very inconsistent, the former being 
wholly useless as being too late, and the latter idola- 



232 MOKNINGS AMONG 

trous, as offering a prayer to a creature which ought 
only to be offered to the Creator. 

It was evident that we were not likely to agree. 
The truth was, that, surrounded and assailed as I was 
by four of the reverend professors in their own college, 
I was not disposed to be as gentle and as cautious as 
I might otherwise have been. One of the party call- 
ed on me some days afterward, in company with a lay 
brother, and we resumed the subject in detail ; but 
there was nothing very important elicited. 

As much use is made by the priests at Rome of 
arguments derived from the Catacombs, a few more 
words may be added on the subject. Those Cata- 
combs have for centuries been in the possession of 
the monks of certain convents, and no one is permit- 
ted to enter without the attendance of one or more of 
these ; and they are constantly talking of new and won- 
derful discoveries of inscriptions, and relics, and chap- 
els, which are sure to confound all opponents of the 
Church of Rome. In truth, they are able to invent 
any discovery that may suit them, and make any ar- 
rangements within the Catacombs that may serve 
their purpose. They have exclusive charge of the 
Catacombs, and they can not be regarded as over- 
scrupulous in their reported discoveries. 

It is not, however, in the Catacombs themselves 
that an anxious and earnest inquirer can obtain much 
satisfactory information respecting the practices or 
opinions of the first Christians. It may be, and un- 
doubtedly is, satisfactory to one's curiosity to witness 
those dark recesses which were the scenes and theater 
of some }f the most striking events in Christian story. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 233 

But all, or almost all, the monuments — the real me- 
mentoes of the past, have been removed. The marble 
slabs that sealed the graves, the tablets with their in- 
scriptions, and all else that was real and certain — all 
that could be depended on as likely to throw light on 
the past, have been removed. Some have found their 
way into private collections, a few have a place in the 
Capitol, a few more may be seen preserved in the Jes- 
uits' College, while the great mass has been removed 
to the Vatican, where they form a great collection, 
great in number, in importance, and in interest. It 
may indeed take away somewhat of the interest of 
such monuments, the seeing them, not in their own 
position beside the graves of the Catacombs ; but still, 
as there is no security against the Catacombs falling 
in and burying them forever, it was of immense im- 
portance that they should be removed to some place 
of safety, where they may be preserved forever. No 
place could be more suitably selected than their pres- 
ent position in the Vatican. 

In the long gallery, called, I believe, la galleria 
lapidaria, by which the series of galleries of sculpture 
are approached, there are said to be deposited and ex- 
hibited for examination four thousand monuments or 
works of antiquity. Of these there is a very consid- 
erable portion connected with Christian antiquity. 
Inserted in the wall on one side are a vast number of 
monuments, tablets, inscriptions, being memorials of 
the heathen dead. In the wall, on the other hand, are 
inserted a similar series of analogous monuments, in- 
scriptions, and tablets, the memorials of the Christian 
dead. The inquirer thus possesses at a glance all he 



234 MORNINGS AMONG 

requires for a comparison of the practices and opinions 
of both heathens and Christians on these occasions. 
There is but little difference between them beyond 
that of the heathens beginning with the words " Divis 
Manibus," and those of the Christian ending with the 
words " inpaceP Nor, indeed, ought much to be ex- 
pected. The ties of near relationship are the same, 
whether among heathens or among Christians. The 
natural love of husband and wife — the mutual bond 
of parent and child — the pure affection of brother and 
sister, are one and the same, whether among heathens 
or among Christians; and as the griefs are as sad, and 
the mourning as deep in one as in the other, so the 
language of affectionate and sorrowing remembrance 
— the expressions of monumental inscriptions must 
be expected to be much the same, whether on the 
tablets of the cinerary urns of heathen Rome, or on the 
monuments beside the Catacomb graves of Christian 
Rome.* 

Day after day and week after week have I paused 
in this gallery to examine these monumental inscrip- 
tions. It always occurred to me that if a belief in 
the sufferings of the dead in purgatory — if a belief in 
the efficacy of the prayers of the living in behalf of 
the dead — if a belief in the matter of fact of the de- 
parted saints praying for the living— if a belief in the 
efficacy of any praying to or invocation of the depart- 
ed saints, was held among the Christians of the 

* Among the heathen inscriptions is one which struck me as a beauti- 
ful memorial from a husband to his wife. It was to the effect that never, 
during their union, had she done any thing to displease him but once, 
and that was by dying. 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 235 

Church in those early ages, when the Church used to 
hide herself, used to celebrate her worship, and used 
to bury her dead in the Catacombs, there ought to be, 
and there should be, some evidence of such belief in 
the inscriptions so numerous to be found in the Cat- 
acombs. The absence — the total and perfect absence 
of every thing of the kind, seems to argue powerfully 
that no such things entered into the religious belief 
of the Christians of those ages. - 

There are two things observable in those inscrip- 
tions. 

The first is, that while some begin with the single 
word pax, almost all of them end with the words 
npace or in pace, or in christo, or some cross or other 
anagram of Christ expressing the same thing. There 
is seldom any word connected with this. The in- 
scription will generally be found to contain the name 
of the dead, and the age or number of years he may 
have lived, as thus: "To Julius, a pious and well- 
deserving son : he lived XX. years in peace;" or " To 
Evodia : she lived XXX. years in Christ." A careful 
examination of a large number of these inscriptions 
gave the impression that the intention was to convey 
the idea that the person had died " in peace," that is, in 
the peace of God or " in Christ," that is, in the faith 
of Christ, and that nothing more or less was intended. 

It is observable that in a modern grave-yard in any 
Roman Catholic country there are always expressions 
in the monumental inscriptions which intimate the 
belief of the Church of Rome. There is a request to 
the passing traveler to offer a prayer for the dead ; 
there is a statement setting forth that it is a good 



236 MORNINGS AMONG 

thing to pray for the dead ; there is a prayer that the 
dead may rest in peace ; there is a request for the 
assisting prayers of the saints. These and others of 
a similar tendency are found in every cemetery in 
Roman Catholic countries. But there is nothing like 
this — nothing that has the faintest resemblance of 
this, or of any opinion approaching to any of these, 
to be found among the innumerable inscriptions col- 
lected from the Catacombs. The whole collection of 
inscriptions thus argues unanswerably that those opin- 
ions that have been of late years so universally re- 
ceived in the Church of Rome were wholly unknown 
in the primitive Church. 

The other peculiarity in these inscriptions which 
deserves attention is the system of graving signs or 
symbols on the tablets. The cross, the ship, the fish, 
are frequent ; and still more that common symbol of 
the cross, as the Greek X, with the R, as the firsl 
two letters of xpwrog, combined with the A and ft, 
the whole being intended to represent the dead as hav- 
ing died in the faith of Christ, the Alpha and the 
Omega. The ship, like the ark of Noah, seems to 
represent the Church ; and the dead is thus described 
as one saved in the Church of God. The fish, fyOvg , 
a word composed of the initial letters of l7jasg Xpicrog 
Bes viog ZuTTjp, was a very favorite symbol, and ac- 
cordingly sometimes appears on the monumental tab- 
lets, implying that the dead had died in Christ. The 
dove is often added as the emblem of peace ; and Jo- 
nah and the fish, as the emblem of the resurrection. 
Indeed, in all those inscriptions, whatever form they 
assume, there is conveyed the one plain and simple 



THE JESUITS AT ROME. 237 

statement, that the person who lay buried beneath 
the tablet was a Christian; and all these several 
forms, assumed, perhaps, from the varying tastes of 
individuals, seem to regard it as enough to describe 
the dead as having died in the peace of God and in 
the faith of Christ. 

This simplicity of primitive Christianity is a very 
interesting characteristic of those early ages. Indeed, 
it is quite refreshing to the spirit, which is so oppress- 
ed by all the gairish show and complicated ceremo- 
nials of the present times. It is absolutely a relief 
— a throwing off a burden, to let the mind turn away 
from a series of difficult and complicated doctrines — 
from a mass of dogmatical mysteries and scholastical 
subtleties — from a round of symbolical forms and un- 
intelligible ceremonies, so associated with every phase 
of religion at Rome, and to let it rest for a while 
amid the simplicity that characterized the religion of 
those who were " the destitute, afflicted, tormented" 
of the Church, and were compelled to hide themselves 
" in dens and caves of the earth." The men who 
were faithful amid the fiercest persecutions, who 
counted it all joy to be able to worship God in the 
darkness of the Catacombs, and there lived and there 
died, were content to live in the peace of God and to 
die in the faith of Christ, and to inscribe on the tombs 
of those " who resisted unto blood, striving against 
sin," the simple words in pace or in christo. It 
seems to imply that the times are changed, and that 
we are changed with them when we yearn for more. 

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